Ban meta



  • Hi!

    The same champion get banned all the time on ranked matches. It's because they have a skill what garants them huge benefit. I will list these popular bans, analyze to ban cause and suggest a solution how to nerf them without lower their playing experience.

    Willo: I realy love her new mobility, it makes her gameplay much more comfortable and allow her do cheekier plays, so I'm sure that it shouldn't be renerfed. But she become too strong after these buffs, so she needs a nerf. The main reason we use her is Dead Zone. It can prevent too much heals. I suggest to reduce its duration by 1s. Also her Blastflower is cleraly better than the other talents, so I suggest to reduce its dmg bonus duration from 5s to 3s but for buff her other talents I also suggest to reduce the cd of Dead Zone and Seedlings from 15s to 14s.

    Jenos: He got tons of nerfs but he is still meta, because a flankerless team cant kill him and he easily boosts the damage of his whole team. This dmg boost isn't just too much (it has long duration and for multiply allies all the time) but it's too easy to use it well, you don't need aiming not even timing skill. I suggest to rework Luminary for make it weaker and also require skill: It gives 15% dmg bonus and 15% DR for the target for 3s.

    Atlas: His Second Chanse gives him tons of sustain, this is why he is an annoying off-tank and he is always banned. I suggest to reduce its setting back time from 5s to 4s.

    Makoa: Hook is a realy dangerous skill in his kit, and resillance doesn't defend against it. It still has a huge range (despits it has been nerfed once), I often felt that I was from a mile from him and I still have hooked and die of course. I suggest to reduce its range by 20% for decrease his insane zoning skill.

    Khan: His kit counters so many champions in the game (grab cancel's Fernando's shield, Shouting counters all burst dmg skills and ultimates, he can activates his shield whenever what also can counter e.g. Seris' ult...) meanwhile he has insane amount of dmg and the strongest ultimate in the game. He also has OP cards. I suggest to reduce HopeGuard's heal bonus from 6%/lvl to 4%/lvl and Never Surrender!'s bonus from 1s/lvl to 0.4s/lvl.

    Torvald: Torvald has a realy good ultimate but this isn't why we pick him. It is personal shielding. He's got two OP cards what can make it too strong. Because his base kit isn't that insane. I suggest to Timeshaper's bonus from 0.5s/lvl to 0.25s/lvl and Winddancer's from 10%/lvl to 7%/lvl.



  • This seem to be typical high rank bans. On ranks below Diamond typical bans are Skye, Maeve, Seris...

    Willo is atm the best champion in my opinion. The only champ having a higher winrate-by-skill is Drogoz but Drogoz is only superior on some map and against some champions while Willo works in every constellation.

    Jenos and Torv are like Tyra only played cause of their damage boost talents. Away with those talents.

    Atlas winrate is very very bad. I have no idea why he is constantly banned. A nerf and the champ might be dead.


  • PC

    @KicsitCsicska

    Willo: Instead of reducing Deadzone duration how about removing the 1 second heal delay after getting out of it? Or split the difference - remove .5 second from both.

    Jenos: I'd have to see how this works out in actual use to make an opinion.

    Atlas: Yeah, second chance is annoying but Setback is the primary reason I ban him. I'd rather Setback be reduced as to how far back it goes.

    Makoa: 20% seems harsh. How about 10%?

    Khan: HopeGuard - OK Never Surrender - Your change makes it max of 2 instead of 5. How about .7 - making it max at 3.5 seconds?

    Torvald: Fine by me.

    @M3RC3N4RI0 The bans KicsitCsicska posted are currently the most common bans in my matches (Gold). The ones you mention are once in a while bans.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 I actually stucked in diamond 3, my experiences are from this rank. But before I reached it I also played in platina, where I saw mostly the same bans. There are Drogoz bans too oof course, but his OP talent will be nerfed in the next patch, so I didn't suggested to nerf it. Same as Trya.
    I also don't understand why Atlas is so good, I suck as him, but he is perma ban not just on dia, but on PPL matches as well. Second Chanse gives full heal literally without a talent and without a chanse to counter it, and Setback on mounting enemies just put them back into the spawn what is also realy effective. Maybe he deserves to get back that 1s into his ultimate, what is a realy weak skill in his kit.


  • PC

    willo is op for 3 reasons
    first is dead zone, it's 100% caut first round so she can take whatever item she wants
    second is her ult, it was kinda bad but since the buff there is literally nothing except snipers (by snipers I mean strix and nessa) that can kill an ulting willo
    third is that damage reduction card on her dash, it allows her to duel any damage or flank at close range

    so yeah no wonder why she has the highest winrate in the game atm

    jenos is op just cause he can heal trough walls and that damage buff, maybe it could be reworked into something else, cause damage buffs are not making the game healthy

    atlas, is, well, op af
    not just his rewind that isn't affected by cripple nor anything, not just his setback who rekt anyone including powerful ults such as koa or term, but also his freaking shield that you can't do shit about and just end up praying you don't die to his op af gun which has no falloff, can 2 shots damage and flank if let's say there is a jenos boosting his damage, which can anyway almost 2 shot you, which is a 900 hit, for a damn tank, he barely has a lower dps than kinessa, but has more than twice the health, basically has 2 lives, can prevent enemy from going away, and has the most op shield ever made

    koa needs to see his hook fixed, I'm tired of being hooked trough walls / floor / ceiling / etc...
    also the pull time should be lower, cause most of the time you will die before reaching koa while hooked just cause 3 people will be able to shoot you for 2seconds where you can't do shit, then koa will finish you with that 1 hit

    khan is both good and not so good, he kinda get rekt by most damage champs if no one is backing him up, wrecker especially hurts him more than any other champs, of course he's great but I don't feel like he's better than other tanks
    on a side note his ult is clearly not the best in the game, only his talents should be reworked a bit cause it's braindead right now

    torv, needs, to, be, reworked, completely
    the upcoming change will make him useless, no one wants to play solo tank just for a 15% dmg boost that both tyra and jenos will do better, of course he can shield people, but wrecker destroy him, he has huge hitbox and no mobility, so basically torv will be a dead weight, I already see people not banning him and people losing with him, even in pros, I guess it means that torv is overrated and will die with next update

    on a side note, can we finally see some good buffs? (andro / skye / most flanks actually / seris / andro again / etc...)

    oh and drogoz should have a better flying ability without wyrm cuz like when I play without wyrm I feel like am just a bk but worse x)

    and if atlas has a low winrate it's because he's hard to play, his setback can save enemies and I've seen many many atlas using setback whenever it was available



  • @KicsitCsicska
    I think bans might also depend on which server you play. I can imagine that Atlas is strong in PPL. In extremely coordinated teams rewind is probably very effective. But in pew-pew-teams where everyone fights for their own his tricks are not so effective.

    @TangAce
    Atlas needs 1.5 seconds to fully load his gun what is a dps of 600.

    I also think Torv is overrated. Once the other team has wrecker III he is quite useless. In addition he is absolutely no fun to play.

    Drogoz has already the highest winrate of all champs, he is lucky if he keeps his flying ability.

    It's probably true that Atlas is OP with the sill of a pro-player but if one analyzes bans at ranked for balancing this is not really relevant. 🙂

    @DaddyOoker
    Do you have statistics about bans or how do you know what are currently the most common bans?


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0

    atlas is op and banned mostly because of his shield and rewind, setback isn't the problem at all, his gun may have a slow dps if you charge it, but it has no dmg falloff, if you are at close range his dps goes quite up, it also can headshot

    drogoz is far from having the best winrate, maybe in silver he has idk, but in higher elo willo has the highest then bk/cassie

    bk/cassie were always in the 3 highest winrate among dmg champs btw

    I'd rather ban evie or bk than drogoz tbh

    torv got killed anyway, not as useless as koga but almost

    really you don't need to be a pro nor to have great coms to play atlas in a way that will win you the game, it's a champ that no other champ can 1v1, and in team fights he will make quite a big difference

    however it's true that the meta is a tiny bit different depending on the region, I see atlas less banned in NA than EU



  • @TangAce said in Ban meta:

    bk/cassie were always in the 3 highest winrate among dmg champs btw

    I think I looked before the last patch.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0
    actually drogoz is third after willo and bk, so as a blaster he's totally last since evie is higher and dredge doesn't exist

    then he just got nerf (and yes this nerf makes a difference, tried it and I'm already not playing drogoz with wyrm anymore xD ) so his winrate will probably drop a little

    also you can't really compare just based on winrate, since some champs are more played than others, some champs are also only played by "specialists" bk is the perfect exemple, he has a high winrate cause his yes op but only people who can play him well tend to actually play it, let's not forget it's stats so the winrate isn't the absolute truth, we gotta look at the reasons behind said stats

    last patch willo was tied with drogoz and bk

    this is from the top 5% players in terms of skill

    in terms of overall winrate willo is far above everything else while drogoz is even below vivian ^^ but can you really use that when you see moji as the third best overall winrate?

    anyway it also depends on maps and comps and stuff, for exemple players in higher elo will tend not to pick drogoz if it's countered, which will obviously raise the winrate since it becomes a very safe pick and the enemy probably won't have anything to kill it

    drogoz is a good champ but isn't worth a ban really, most hitscans can kill him so if you are careful to your draft there shouldn't be a drogoz problem anyway
    but of course if people pick dredge after you picked bk then you are screwed, cause shit happens

    still there is no real reason to ban drogoz, there are far better bans, atlas/kogakoa/jenos/willo/khan/evie/I'd even prefer to ban terminus than drogoz, even skye is a better ban when I see these drog/zhin bans I feel like we are still in 2018 :3



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Ban meta:

    Atlas winrate is very very bad. I have no idea why he is constantly banned. A nerf and the champ might be dead.

    atlas is a fat evie that can't be crippled and has an amazing shield that he can attack while using.

    and he can initiate a fight vs a squishy with a 700 burst.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Ban meta:

    @DaddyOoker
    Do you have statistics about bans or how do you know what are currently the most common bans?

    No statistics, just experience from my own matches - as I said in that post. The only one I don't see banned that often from Kics list is Jenos.

    Last ranked bans - this from my Gold II account (From last split since I haven't played ranked at all this split)

    • Khan, Strix, Torvald, Makoa
    • Willo, Strix, Makoa, Atlas
    • Atlas, Makoa, Khan, Willo
    • Makoa, Khan, Tovald, Inara
    • Torvald, Willo, Maeve, Atlas
    • Torvald, Makoa, Drogoz, Khan
    • Tyra, Lian, Atlas, Makoa
    • Torvald, Seris, Strix, Terminus
    • Atlas, Makoa, Willo, Khan
    • Atlas, Makoa, Torvald, Drogoz
    • Drogoz, Willo, Zhin, Tyra
    • Makoa, Atlas, Torvald, Inara
    • Torvald, Tyra, Atlas, Makoa
    • Drogoz, Atlas, Makoa, Torvald

    etc

    Obviously the bans are map dependent as well.


  • PC

    I have played a couple of ranked games this split, and Torvald actually doesn't seem to be getting banned any more.

    I very much disagree with the logic that if it's banned, it needs a nerf.

    That simply isn't always the case. Torvald, well, was, the greatest example of this. He needed a nerf to the damage boost on Field Study, we got it, and now he went from being (IMO) a niche champion that rarely won games against competent teams, but the "pro" players kept banning him anyways, to a totally dead character. What he also really needed is a shift to his playstyle to make him closer to the point tank he used to be (buff his sustain and basically the rest of his base kit, but nerf Protection). He was overrated AF last patch, and honestly if there are people STILL rating him as an S-tier character NOW I am going to lose it because there's literally NOTHING going for him now. Wrecker literally counters the champion even worse than before, and it was already a hard counter to the character (at least in my experiences).

    Also, there's Khan. The issue with Khan is not that he's actually OP, but it's that people think he is. His damage output is very, very overrated and frankly it's not even good. I rarely ever see a Khan outdeal other tanks. His damage output, based on results, is probably the fourth lowest in the class (the three lower ones being Inara, Terminus, and Torvald, though really Terminus has much more consistent damage than a lot of people believe). His ult is easy AF to miss (in fact, almost every Khan I've played with in Casual or Competitive misses it almost as often as it actually hits) as it's so buggy that it might even make Terminus' ult look stable. His shield is also pretty mediocre, and Khan can even be hit through it by certain champions like Bomb King and Ash.

    As for the rest of the bans I've seen THIS PATCH (though I've never seen Torvald and if I did I honestly would internally scream), most of them seem reasonable enough and most of them either need straight-up nerfs or adjustments that are. Willo's mobility is insane, combined with her now consistent DPS and the sheer stupidity of Dead Zone brings back painful memories for us tank mains. Her ultimate is fine, though she needs MUCH less mobility and they should really consider adjusting Dead Zone, and nerfing its healing reduction A LOT.
    Jenos, although his healing output could honestly use a buff, Luminary absolutely needs a rework (that would be a net nerf). The rest of his kit, while not being all that great, doesn't have to be when you have something that's as broken as applying a long term damage amp THROUGH WALLS and even at decent range. Then there's Maeve who's been consistently performing and it's not hard to see why with the current strengths of her kit. Sure her cooldowns are rather high, but Nine Lives exists, and also sure her ultimate is mediocre, but her burst potential with Cat Burglar is absurd. She can three-shot most squishy characters with relative ease...
    Atlas is banned for a reason, but it really isn't a good one. Just because a character has the potential to be absurdly broken in the right hands doesn't mean he is. With that said, he kind of is. Literally the only thing keeping him from being a SSS tier level tank right now is his lengthy cooldowns and the fact he has only one way of dealing damage (or two with Fissure, but nobody uses that). His "shield" is REALLY good, like bordering on broken because it basically is a shield with infinite health that is immune to Wrecker... His Setback, although sucky in his base kit, is really good with Deja Vu because it can be hit rather consistently with that talent. His Second Chance, if used properly, has levels of value that might make it almost seem like it should have been an ultimate. Sure in his kit, f*** no because without it his sustain would be downright terrible, but the ability's self-healing and caut negating potential is crazy, not to mention its offensive uses.



  • @DaddyOoker said in Ban meta:

    No statistics, just experience from my own matches - as I said in that post. The only one I don't see banned that often from Kics list is Jenos.

    Last ranked bans - this from my Gold II account (From last split since I haven't played ranked at all this split)

    • Khan, Strix, Torvald, Makoa
    • Willo, Strix, Makoa, Atlas
    • Atlas, Makoa, Khan, Willo
    • Makoa, Khan, Tovald, Inara
    • Torvald, Willo, Maeve, Atlas
    • Torvald, Makoa, Drogoz, Khan
    • Tyra, Lian, Atlas, Makoa
    • Torvald, Seris, Strix, Terminus
    • Atlas, Makoa, Willo, Khan
    • Atlas, Makoa, Torvald, Drogoz
    • Drogoz, Willo, Zhin, Tyra
    • Makoa, Atlas, Torvald, Inara
    • Torvald, Tyra, Atlas, Makoa
    • Drogoz, Atlas, Makoa, Torvald

    Very interesting. Maybe my memory tricks me about this. Not a single flank ban, wow! Is this EU server?


  • Switch

    The banned maeve 🙂

    See the fifth line

    Also zhin



  • @a_a said in Ban meta:

    The banned maeve 🙂

    See the fifth line

    Also zhin

    The exception proves the rule. cough


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0

    Most are NA server. Yeah, got one Maeve and Zhin ban in there 🙂



  • @Dusklicious said in Ban meta:

    I very much disagree with the logic that if it's banned, it needs a nerf.

    I don't think the way how most people ban is very logic. There is 5 players in the other team and 4 in my team who might play Makoa, so the chance I weaken the own team if I ban him is almost as high as the chance I weaken the other team. If I play tank as last pick I often get shit because my leader banned the good tanks. It makes more sense to ban the counter picks of the own champ.


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