Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...



  • Just flat out nerfing caut will cause a chain reaction and mess the game up even more. Think about it, less caut means more heal bot metas, longer drawn out poke fights and Willow in every lobby as a mandatory pick. Hirez will try to fix things by nerfing supports yet again and we'll be back at the beginning with caut making healers obsolete after a while. Even just increasing the price of it would make the team with the bigger healbot win and everyone would buy caut and won't have enough to spend on other items like wrecker or haven.

    If they want to balance things properly they'll have to start from scratch because any less will just cause more problems.


  • PC

    @OriginalEquinox said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    Just flat out nerfing caut will cause a chain reaction and mess the game up even more. Think about it, less caut means more heal bot metas, longer drawn out poke fights and Willow in every lobby as a mandatory pick. Hirez will try to fix things by nerfing supports yet again and we'll be back at the beginning with caut making healers obsolete after a while. Even just increasing the price of it would make the team with the bigger healbot win and everyone would buy caut and won't have enough to spend on other items like wrecker or haven.

    If they want to balance things properly they'll have to start from scratch because any less will just cause more problems.

    There's really simple solutions to these problems, to be honest. Nerfing the healing reduction on Dead Zone (while probably giving it a decent DoT in return), and nerfing heals on some supports with this change would probably help out a lot. It would make Caut less necessary and in Willo's case less accessible.

    As for longer fights, we actually NEED longer fights and a higher TTK at this point. The problem right now is with characters that can easily burst down enemies or set up for teammates to do that. More drawn out fights and less Caut means that more sustained damage characters like Viktor might become meta (without giving them an unfun or, in Viktor's case when Shrapnel was meta, easily conf burst option), and we'd get a more balanced game from it than a game where you can easily burst down people from full health in a second and a half with most of the top picks in the meta (or in the case of Jenos, increase that potential even more).


  • PC

    @Dusklicious said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @OriginalEquinox said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    Just flat out nerfing caut will cause a chain reaction and mess the game up even more. Think about it, less caut means more heal bot metas, longer drawn out poke fights and Willow in every lobby as a mandatory pick. Hirez will try to fix things by nerfing supports yet again and we'll be back at the beginning with caut making healers obsolete after a while. Even just increasing the price of it would make the team with the bigger healbot win and everyone would buy caut and won't have enough to spend on other items like wrecker or haven.

    If they want to balance things properly they'll have to start from scratch because any less will just cause more problems.

    There's really simple solutions to these problems, to be honest. Nerfing the healing reduction on Dead Zone (while probably giving it a decent DoT in return), and nerfing heals on some supports with this change would probably help out a lot. It would make Caut less necessary and in Willo's case less accessible.

    As for longer fights, we actually NEED longer fights and a higher TTK at this point. The problem right now is with characters that can easily burst down enemies or set up for teammates to do that. More drawn out fights and less Caut means that more sustained damage characters like Viktor might become meta (without giving them an unfun or, in Viktor's case when Shrapnel was meta, easily conf burst option), and we'd get a more balanced game from it than a game where you can easily burst down people from full health in a second and a half with most of the top picks in the meta (or in the case of Jenos, increase that potential even more).

    Agreed, nerfing or reducing how quickly you can max out a 90% Cauterize may help reduce the burst problem the game currently has on top of at the very least making picking other items a viable option.

    Frankly speaking, if nerfing cauterize causes problems now it’s because Hi-Rez waited far too long to properly adjust this item when they’ve had years to do so... I’d say now or never.


  • PC

    @REDBelmont456 said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @Dusklicious said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @OriginalEquinox said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    Just flat out nerfing caut will cause a chain reaction and mess the game up even more. Think about it, less caut means more heal bot metas, longer drawn out poke fights and Willow in every lobby as a mandatory pick. Hirez will try to fix things by nerfing supports yet again and we'll be back at the beginning with caut making healers obsolete after a while. Even just increasing the price of it would make the team with the bigger healbot win and everyone would buy caut and won't have enough to spend on other items like wrecker or haven.

    If they want to balance things properly they'll have to start from scratch because any less will just cause more problems.

    There's really simple solutions to these problems, to be honest. Nerfing the healing reduction on Dead Zone (while probably giving it a decent DoT in return), and nerfing heals on some supports with this change would probably help out a lot. It would make Caut less necessary and in Willo's case less accessible.

    As for longer fights, we actually NEED longer fights and a higher TTK at this point. The problem right now is with characters that can easily burst down enemies or set up for teammates to do that. More drawn out fights and less Caut means that more sustained damage characters like Viktor might become meta (without giving them an unfun or, in Viktor's case when Shrapnel was meta, easily conf burst option), and we'd get a more balanced game from it than a game where you can easily burst down people from full health in a second and a half with most of the top picks in the meta (or in the case of Jenos, increase that potential even more).

    Agreed, nerfing or reducing how quickly you can max out a 90% Cauterize may help reduce the burst problem the game currently has on top of at the very least making picking other items a viable option.

    Frankly speaking, if nerfing cauterize causes problems now it’s because Hi-Rez waited far too long to properly adjust this item when they’ve had years to do so... I’d say now or never.

    I like the idea of nerfing it to 25/50/75 personally, it's not really that big of a nerf so the adjustments wouldn't even have to be that drastic, but it's more than enough to make a significant difference especially at later ranks.



  • @Dusklicious do you mean nerf healing AFTER nerfing caut? Because that'll bring us a full circle as I mentioned, low caut but also lower healing, the changes will just cancel eachother out.

    As for longer fights sure it sucks balls to get double tapped by a sniper the second you take a corner but imagine a cc immune Inara just sitting on point for hours without a care in the world, the poor PPL guys would lose their minds to find out tanks are even more unlikable lol, ofcourse nerfing tanks would be a option but do we want that?


  • PC

    @OriginalEquinox said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @Dusklicious do you mean nerf healing AFTER nerfing caut? Because that'll bring us a full circle as I mentioned, low caut but also lower healing, the changes will just cancel eachother out.

    Not at all. The changes would just change how powerful healing is throughout the game and would be a buff to the healing that isn't nerfed. I never said "nerf all healing abilities" or "nerf self-healing." It's really an opportunity more than anything to actually balance the supports out without really having to adjust their kits all that much.


  • PC

    I think the biggest issue right now is mindset... cauterize wouldn’t have to be so damn broken if flanks and damages did a better job prioritizing healers since a team fight usually falls apart as soon as the healer kicks the bucket...

    All a 90% Cauterize does is allows the damage to brute force their DPS through the healers healing which in turn makes the healer have to play like damage at the end in order to try and win the team fight before the tank kicks the bucket...

    If cauterize was less powerful or harder to get to 90% it would pretty much force people to play more aggressively or tactfully instead of playing the camp game and racing to max cauterize to make irrelevant the healer on the opposing team...



  • @Dusklicious said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @OriginalEquinox said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    Just flat out nerfing caut will cause a chain reaction and mess the game up even more. Think about it, less caut means more heal bot metas, longer drawn out poke fights and Willow in every lobby as a mandatory pick. Hirez will try to fix things by nerfing supports yet again and we'll be back at the beginning with caut making healers obsolete after a while. Even just increasing the price of it would make the team with the bigger healbot win and everyone would buy caut and won't have enough to spend on other items like wrecker or haven.

    If they want to balance things properly they'll have to start from scratch because any less will just cause more problems.

    There's really simple solutions to these problems, to be honest. Nerfing the healing reduction on Dead Zone (while probably giving it a decent DoT in return), and nerfing heals on some supports with this change would probably help out a lot. It would make Caut less necessary and in Willo's case less accessible.

    As for longer fights, we actually NEED longer fights and a higher TTK at this point. The problem right now is with characters that can easily burst down enemies or set up for teammates to do that. More drawn out fights and less Caut means that more sustained damage characters like Viktor might become meta (without giving them an unfun or, in Viktor's case when Shrapnel was meta, easily conf burst option), and we'd get a more balanced game from it than a game where you can easily burst down people from full health in a second and a half with most of the top picks in the meta (or in the case of Jenos, increase that potential even more).

    Viktor is in META tho,
    Vivian, Tyra and Viktor are META and a scourge in console.



  • @Zeebuoy said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @Gao-Shun said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    Not gonna through another wall of explanation again, just here to remind you from me a support main that if Cauterize is nerfed, Burst damage will be increased
    Burst meta is fun right

    is FLAT OUT NERFING THOSE DAMN GREEN NUMBERS NOT AN OPTION?

    not an option , cause nerfing cauterize and nerfing healing equals to the current situation.

    You guys completely forgot that for true burst champions like Dredge (before nerf) Cauterize isn't even needed. Dredge players rushed deft hand 3 cause no amount of healing can save a champion inside Dredge burst.
    Nerf cauterize and sustain damage champions would be obsolete. Why do I want to pick Viktor who would do sustain damage when I can pick BK/Dredge/Drogoz and combo the targets with a burst.

    Cauterize is what making sustain damage champions viable cause they can apply constant cauterize effect. Burst damage champions don't need it too much



  • Cautarisation should be reduced to 25 - 50 - 75 … that is enough.



  • I just feel going to %75 would mean a rework to most damage classes to actually be able to provide better point pressure abilities made to deny area and seperate team rather then the.... lian duelist design... e.g a flank in the damage section...


  • PC

    @Gao-Shun said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @Dusklicious said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @OriginalEquinox said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    Just flat out nerfing caut will cause a chain reaction and mess the game up even more. Think about it, less caut means more heal bot metas, longer drawn out poke fights and Willow in every lobby as a mandatory pick. Hirez will try to fix things by nerfing supports yet again and we'll be back at the beginning with caut making healers obsolete after a while. Even just increasing the price of it would make the team with the bigger healbot win and everyone would buy caut and won't have enough to spend on other items like wrecker or haven.

    If they want to balance things properly they'll have to start from scratch because any less will just cause more problems.

    There's really simple solutions to these problems, to be honest. Nerfing the healing reduction on Dead Zone (while probably giving it a decent DoT in return), and nerfing heals on some supports with this change would probably help out a lot. It would make Caut less necessary and in Willo's case less accessible.

    As for longer fights, we actually NEED longer fights and a higher TTK at this point. The problem right now is with characters that can easily burst down enemies or set up for teammates to do that. More drawn out fights and less Caut means that more sustained damage characters like Viktor might become meta (without giving them an unfun or, in Viktor's case when Shrapnel was meta, easily conf burst option), and we'd get a more balanced game from it than a game where you can easily burst down people from full health in a second and a half with most of the top picks in the meta (or in the case of Jenos, increase that potential even more).

    Viktor is in META tho,

    No he's not, at least not on PC. He's just OK on PC.



  • @Dusklicious Vik isn't necessarily strong on console either tbh, just a nuisance in most cases, only a threat if he's running a damage amped burst fire which shreds squishies. Even Tyra is very situational, she can spam molotovs in small maps but is sniper fodder everywhere else. Viv is one of the few remaining strong hitscans we have currently but with Willow being meta you don't see her often because her shield is obsolete against aoe, really hope they nerf blastflower...


  • PC

    @OriginalEquinox

    vik is strong on console, but when there are good people playing evie, he just won't do much ^^



  • Cauterize only needs a nerf on the 3rd level. Most matches should end before Level 3 Cauterize is available, but for those even matches, Level 3 Cauterize makes too much of an impact on the game that an even match can become completely one-sided. Unfortunately, to nerf Cauterize, you need to nerf it all the only available options are increasing the price or lowering the percentages.



  • @TangAce or Maeve, Pip, Willow basically anyone that can get behind you constantly because it takes a month in working days just to do a 180 on controller, so if someone hops around you're gonna have a tough time tracking while they get some free damage in


  • PC

    @OriginalEquinox
    it's not that hard, I play with a 3-3-3 sens on gamepad (so it's very low) and I still manage to beat consistently evie players (and by that I mean people who are using evie in gm^^) it's just that console players lack some reflexes and habits regarding high mobility champs, usually I feel like console players lack gamesense compared to pc players, I can't say I haver very good aim with a gamepad since I almost never play with one, but I manage to win most games if my team isn't full silver, 80% of the games I play in gm I win; even if there are pros or whatever in enemy team

    to go back to the main topic; the game is balanced according to caut, it's just a core mechanic disguised as an item really, saying to nerf it or remove is stupid, caut is what makes paladins what it is, you remove it and you get an ow with a slightly different mobility and strategy

    if we start removing core mechanics then what really is pâladins? it's kinda like saying you want the main gamemode to be onslaught

    caut is a very interesting mechanic, it forces you to clean it, with shield or hiding, it also prevents bot healing and stupid strats like you can see in ow, it also means you will play a bit differently in late game compared to early game

    if you find caut troublesome then simply learn to play around it, watch ppl matches maybe, it'll help you understanding the caut mechanic


  • PC

    @TangAce said in Cauterize has been a Mandatory pick for far too long...:

    @OriginalEquinox
    it's not that hard, I play with a 3-3-3 sens on gamepad (so it's very low) and I still manage to beat consistently evie players (and by that I mean people who are using evie in gm^^) it's just that console players lack some reflexes and habits regarding high mobility champs, usually I feel like console players lack gamesense compared to pc players, I can't say I haver very good aim with a gamepad since I almost never play with one, but I manage to win most games if my team isn't full silver, 80% of the games I play in gm I win; even if there are pros or whatever in enemy team

    to go back to the main topic; the game is balanced according to caut, it's just a core mechanic disguised as an item really, saying to nerf it or remove is stupid, caut is what makes paladins what it is, you remove it and you get an ow with a slightly different mobility and strategy

    if we start removing core mechanics then what really is pâladins? it's kinda like saying you want the main gamemode to be onslaught

    caut is a very interesting mechanic, it forces you to clean it, with shield or hiding, it also prevents bot healing and stupid strats like you can see in ow, it also means you will play a bit differently in late game compared to early game

    if you find caut troublesome then simply learn to play around it, watch ppl matches maybe, it'll help you understanding the caut mechanic

    I strongly disagree with this assesment. IF Cauterize is a core part of the game, it's because it has not been addressed for this long, so addressing it now would surely cause issues... but a neccesary evil imo.

    The BIG issue I have with this argument is that Cauterize is just ONE of 16 Items at play, and the purpose of an item is for it to be useful and viable in most situation for most champions. The problem is that cauterize is so strong and so easily accessible that it effectively nullifies the existence of the 4th item slot and really only makes it so that you have 3 additional item options to choose from. Not to mention it is useful on any champion in any comp unless the enemy team does not have a healer, and that is pretty much a guaranteed loss...

    To add to this argument, I recently had 2 matches where we were really ahead of the enemy team in siege (3/0), until 80% of them went cauterize 3 and suddenly it was nearly impossible as a tank to stay alive, no matter how well the healer did because you had 4/5ths of the enemy team applying 90% healing reduction on you at all times which effectively makes the healer a completely useless class at that point. They eventually beat us out every time in teamfights, cameback and won because we did not go Cauter as hard as they did, that to me is not really fair despite us playing hard and doing our best in prolonged teamfights...

    ONE item out of 16 should not the determining factor of core gameplay make. It's bad design... The fact that you're stating this one item is a core part of Paladins shows just how broken it really is and that it really does need to be looked at.


  • PC

    @REDBelmont456
    the fact that it is an item is indeed bad, but the mechanic itself is good

    and yeah you can win a match and then the enemy has caut and you start losing, that's why there are early and late kind of comps, that also surely means you have to adapt your playstyle during the game

    also while it's good on any champ, supports will get more out of yellow items, at least a dmg should have wrecker in early game if needed, tanks will only get 1 red item most of the time, so having caut as an item kinda makes it that supports won't have it (at least in early game) and maybe in early 1/2 dmg won't have it, the fact that you have to get it at a point makes it that you have to manage your credits, like you can rush caut 3, or take caut 2 wreck 2, or wreck 1 then caut 3 then wreck 2, a support may take chornos 3, someone else will pick chronos 2 with caut 2

    it's not badly designed, imo it's one of the things making the game interesting, without that caut mechanic I probably wouldn't be playing
    I don't want paladins to become the same as ow with shitty metas full of supports and tanks ( well paladins actual meta is pretty shitty thanks to 3-4 champ^s making the game a complete garbage but anyway)


  • Moderator

    If we nerf cauterize, we'd have to nerf heals to balance it out as stated. However if we do that, cauterize would still be just as necessary. It would reduce a smaller proportion of heals, but since heals would be lower than they are now, we'd be left with about the same healing anyway, leading it to be still vital.

    I don't mind caut being overpowered, I think it's a really interesting mechanic and helps even healing focused playstyles not be pure healbots.

    If we were to chance the caut balance, I'd rather just buff some other items to make them stronger. Cauterize is too essential to the game to go about changing it without the whole game significantly changing, probably for the worse.


Log in to reply