The balance of Damage champions



  • I was just fighting a great Andro player as Lian and having difficulty winning 1v1s, and it occurred to me that I would have a much easier time dispatching Androxus if I was playing Strix. (The battles were all occurring at fairly close ranges as Androxus, aside from when he's ulting, isn't effective at any other range. Map was Jaguar Falls). As Lian I had to land the difficult to land Q to do 800 or so damage on him, and then shoot him a bunch of times with my rifle. If I missed Presence, since it's fairly difficult to land a lot of the time, I would then have to land 5-6 non-headshot normal attacks, or 3-4 + my two auto aim abilities.

    Meanwhile, if I was Strix, all I would have to do is land a single bodyshot, hit him once with UU, and then shoot him a few times with the pistol. Even easier if I got a headshot.

    So I guess the moral of the story is... make more champions as easy and effective as Strix is at close quarters. Most people will say the opposite, make Strix less effective at close quarters. I think only champions that require aim ie Andro, Lex, Cassie, Drogoz, Viktor, Lian, and Kinessa should be made this effective. Flat damage buffs, maybe even some secondary weapons, anything's open here.

    Strix's main advantage over other skilled damage carries such as those I've mentioned (Kinessa aside) should be the RANGE of his DPS, not its ease of use.

    Also, get rid of role locks and limits so if you want to play Strix, you can, whenever you want to.

    Thanks,
    mantag

    Edit: to expand on what's wrong with Lian, her Q is difficult to land and in any case aiming with a non-mouse button or even any button other than MB1 is janky. Her attacks don't do that much damage and she doesn't have a tool like Cassie's disengage to make aiming easier by giving opponents a predictable movement.


  • PC

    mmmmh yeah but now

    I read, drogoz need aim, I'm out now

    and no one wants to see strix buffed, really


  • PC

    Is it just me, or is this a bunch of gibberish?



  • Well, I didn't say Strix should be buffed, in fact I think his ult and invis should be replaced. Drogoz definitely needs more aim than BK who can explode his bombs next to their targets. I don't know, I love rocket launchers, admittedly they don't require as precise aim as hitscan targets but Drogoz has barely any splash damage so it does take a lot more aim than for example TF2 rocket launchers.

    @Dusklicious said in The balance of Damage champions:

    Is it just me, or is this a bunch of gibberish?

    Well, we could probably make some headway, with the problem you seem to be having, if you were for instance to explain what you don't understand about my post.



  • Most of your champion threads just highlight UU Strix being uber firepower.
    Which is kind of is, its debilitate by another name, with a low CD for its single target presure power.

    And that you want damage to have the same or similar hit security or single target pressure damage.

    To your issues in the lian v andro battle is not about character power, its a dynamics battle.
    They are very similar champions who counter each other depending on who is on the backfoot first and who gets support.

    Lian is a terrible design for a damage Imo, being more if a crossfire duelist flanker, with little ability to pressure a whole team alone, just survive through things she really shouldn't due to her ult... all she is really good at is killing damage who waste their CDs.

    Strix is obnoxious to fight against as he posesses more firepower then what is needed for his survivability, thus he tends to be one of the hardest to drop if you attempt to hunt him down alone without reveal. He is not all that broken, he just has a touch too fast high single target damage application with pleanty of survivability windows to make them with his stealth and ult with assisted healing from allies. His reactive stealth can earn him more decaut windows then other damage are allowed in a ranged firefight thus the need for reveal effects.

    His flare has always felt off to me, its honestly it is the one features of his kit I would like reworked the most. I can deal with a being blind, I can't deal with idiots who dive Strix and expect to win against UU this once they block his first sniper shot.

    Thus either lower the survivability, or dial back the single target attack damage and replace it with potential damage apects such as less dot damage over a greater duration or area denial damage when flare explodes. I like Strix current survivability, he survives and shrugs off pressure quite well for a grounded champ, he just feels like he has a few to many cheesy moves to support how high his attack power is considering his hit security and the range he can play at vs others, he may be slow, but it should not make him insane to dive.



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in The balance of Damage champions:

    Most of your champion threads just highlight UU Strix being uber firepower.
    Which is kind of is, its debilitate by another name, with a low CD for its single target presure power.

    And that you want damage to have the same or similar hit security or single target pressure damage.

    To your issues in the lian v andro battle is not about character power, its a dynamics battle.
    They are very similar champions who counter each other depending on who is on the backfoot first and who gets support.

    Lian is a terrible design for a damage Imo, being more if a crossfire duelist flanker, with little ability to pressure a whole team alone, just survive through things she really shouldn't due to her ult... all she is really good at is killing damage who waste their CDs.

    Strix is obnoxious to fight against as he posesses more firepower then what is needed for his survivability, thus he tends to be one of the hardest to drop if you attempt to hunt him down alone without reveal. He is not all that broken, he just has a touch too fast high single target damage application with pleanty of survivability windows to make them with his stealth and ult with assisted healing from allies. His reactive stealth can earn him more decaut windows then other damage are allowed in a ranged firefight thus the need for reveal effects.

    His flare has always felt off to me, its honestly it is the one features of his kit I would like reworked the most. I can deal with a being blind, I can't deal with idiots who dive Strix and expect to win against UU this once they block his first sniper shot.

    Thus either lower the survivability, or dial back the single target attack damage and replace it with potential damage apects such as less dot damage over a greater duration or area denial damage when flare explodes. I like Strix current survivability, he survives and shrugs off pressure quite well for a grounded champ, he just feels like he has a few to many cheesy moves to support how high his attack power is considering his hit security and the range he can play at vs others, he may be slow, but it should not make him insane to dive.

    Lot of good points here. The main problems with Strix as I've said before are his ult and his invis. There's no good counter to these mechanics especially as he's a sniper so half the time illuminate is meaningless against him since he'll be on the other side of the map. Even if there is a good counter, it's just not fun being blind or fighting an invisible opponent; it's bad game design. All that said, all his other mechanics are entirely skill based and he has no BS escapes like Zhin or Evie does. So I think other champions like Cassie or Lian should be able to 1v1 him at close range, by buffing their damage stats. If they did like 1000 dmg a shot they'd be a whole lot better at CQB.



  • @taikonaut

    Both his invis & blind effects are the cheapest to buy against in store being illuminate and resiliance.
    Damage champs ought to have a few reveal features for utility sake.
    Although I usually take resiliance to not care about the 3s blind that always gets tossed at my feet instead of trying to find him at midrange, tbh resiliance is the only armour you should need vs strix, other then mitigating the headshot damge that he does not need to be so high.
    I try to spray and pray to find him over illuminate anyway.

    Oh yeah toatally 1000 per hit auto attacks m8.
    On cassie and lian....
    Why bother trying to make a serious thread about balence, if you want auto attack to apply twice the damge for no reason.

    Personally I try to go with 1k of hp means 1s of exposed firefight time.
    So 2k should get you to about 2s of trade time if every auto attack and abilitiy lands.
    Working on that logic, if you get deleted in a 1v1 before that 2s transpires, that is a tad overkill. And strix, close quarters cassie and ranged lian, are very good at doing this due to the ammount of damage they can pump into a single squishy target in a short time.
    Personally you don't need to kill things fast to be effective at damage, you just need to deny an area and divide fights with many forms of firepower and damage utility that forefill different roles make up for what other players lack.

    All a damage needs to do apply non confirmable kill pressure in a balenced way.
    While being able to fend for themselfs and move around to their positions safely.



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @taikonaut

    Both his invis & blind effects are the cheapest to buy against in store being illuminate and resiliance.
    Damage champs ought to have a few reveal features for utility sake.
    Although I usually take resiliance to not care about the 3s blind that always gets tossed at my feet instead of trying to find him at midrange, tbh resiliance is the only armour you should need vs strix, other then mitigating the headshot damge that he does not need to be so high.
    I try to spray and pray to find him over illuminate anyway.

    Oh yeah toatally 1000 per hit auto attacks m8.
    On cassie and lian....
    Why bother trying to make a serious thread about balence, if you want auto attack to apply twice the damge for no reason.

    Personally I try to go with 1k of hp means 1s of exposed firefight time.
    So 2k should get you to about 2s of trade time if every auto attack and abilitiy lands.
    Working on that logic, if you get deleted in a 1v1 before that 2s transpires, that is a tad overkill. And strix, close quarters cassie and ranged lian, are very good at doing this due to the ammount of damage they can pump into a single squishy target in a short time.
    Personally you don't need to kill things fast to be effective at damage, you just need to deny an area and divide fights with many forms of firepower and damage utility that forefill different roles make up for what other players lack.

    All a damage needs to do apply non confirmable kill pressure in a balenced way.
    While being able to fend for themselfs and move around to their positions safely.

    Well, Strix is a lot better than other champions due to his poke damage, especially with UU. 1200 or 1800 poke damage, then another 800 with UU is just crazy. I think Cassie and Lian should have comparable poke damage, but since they don't have scopes it would be more effective at CQB.

    Not to mention, how easy the pistol is to use compared to Cassie or Lian's weapons. It's high rate of fire and hitscan make it a very practical weapon. Meanwhile Cassie has to lead her shots and Lian has a low ROF with only a bit less than twice as much damage. If they buffed Cassie and Lian's damage, made Cassie hitscan, and lowered Lian's rof, they'd be in a far better position in terms of CQB.



  • @taikonaut said in The balance of Damage champions:

    Also, get rid of role locks and limits so if you want to play Strix, you can, whenever you want to.

    when the fuck did we have those?


  • PC

    @taikonaut

    invisibility and ult are the less op abilities of strix lmao, how can you say they are a problem

    and I read somewhere that drogoz needs more aim than bk, bs, bk is way harder to play than drogoz especially aim wise, bombs have dropoff you need to think about when aiming, you need timing to detonate properly, and the projectiles are way slower than drogoz

    and as mentioned there is no role locks and you can play strix whenever you want lol

    #balancefromotpstrixbelike

    :')



  • @TangAce said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @taikonaut

    invisibility and ult are the less op abilities of strix lmao, how can you say they are a problem

    and I read somewhere that drogoz needs more aim than bk, bs, bk is way harder to play than drogoz especially aim wise, bombs have dropoff you need to think about when aiming, you need timing to detonate properly, and the projectiles are way slower than drogoz

    and as mentioned there is no role locks and you can play strix whenever you want lol

    #balancefromotpstrixbelike

    :')

    Well, invisibility and blindness are just not fun at all to fight against and take zero skill to use. By role locks I mean you can't change champions. IDK about Drogoz. It's true his projectiles have huge hitboxes, but it's also true that he fares exceptionally poorly against Strix, and I kinda one tricked him for indecent amounts of time so I'm a bit biased.


  • PC

    @Zeebuoy said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @taikonaut said in The balance of Damage champions:

    Also, get rid of role locks and limits so if you want to play Strix, you can, whenever you want to.

    when the fuck did we have those?

    Never, that's made up. The only "role limits" there are are imposed by the meta, and really they make perfect sense so exactly what the OP seems to want never happens.



  • @taikonaut
    Or like I said before..
    Just nerf Strix single target damage by a fraction to not be a faster and more consistant drop time then other damage.
    Cause Strix has more then enough firepower to drop a target.

    Strix is not a balenced character by any means, he came out with overtoned values compared to the abilities of other champs and has only received nerfs to make him less obnoxious to fight against in a 1v1.
    His biggest issue is that his rifle is the better sniper rifle in the game and forgoes any prefire charge to pump out the same damage per shot, in a shorter time, with a more reactive aim experience, which is a shit tonne of hitscan pressure compared to every one else.
    To talk about Evie trying to fight Strix, 1 headshot is her whole HP pool w/o haven, with no prefire charge... I deem that too much power considering Evie will need 3 hits on you, a lot of mobility and not to get assaulted while attempting to attack you from the core of your team. Kin has to hold charge and tunnel vision, Strix gets a less restrictions and the invis to gain advantage at range.
    Which just makes him out class Kinessa and Sha Lin in casual ques in performace unless he has a long range reveal counter, which are too few characters.
    I'm not even mad at Strix dealing high damage at range, its just its very reliable at any range with no hinderances, while other characters do not have the same easy to land attack, and may suffer range, spread, prefire, that deters their dps, this comes out fast and hard with a bit above average damage dps with nothing to stop it other then player accuracy and LoS cover. If it has no hinderances, why does it deal so much damage and gain the added ability to potentially 1 shot evie from a quickscope.

    I agree that the design of Damage & Flanks could need to be better in some ways, but it is to do with abilities that provide pressure before enguagement to properly threaten and zone tanks and foes with an area advantage, not brain dead higher damage needed to kill squishies faster, crushing the team and denying shields and deployables without the need for item utility.



  • @Dusklicious said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @Zeebuoy said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @taikonaut said in The balance of Damage champions:

    Also, get rid of role locks and limits so if you want to play Strix, you can, whenever you want to.

    when the fuck did we have those?

    Never, that's made up. The only "role limits" there are are imposed by the meta, and really they make perfect sense so exactly what the OP seems to want never happens.

    Well again what I mean by role locks and limits is once you've chosen a champion, you can't then switch the champion in game. Sort of the antonym of the phrase "champion switching." Obviously I think I shouldn't have used that phrasing as probably you guys thought I was referring to Overwatch's role queue mechanics.

    @AYYDIMITRI said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @taikonaut
    Or like I said before..
    Just nerf Strix single target damage by a fraction to not be a faster and more consistant drop time then other damage.
    Cause Strix has more then enough firepower to drop a target.

    Strix is not a balenced character by any means, he came out with overtoned values compared to the abilities of other champs and has only received nerfs to make him less obnoxious to fight against in a 1v1.
    His biggest issue is that his rifle is the better sniper rifle in the game and forgoes any prefire charge to pump out the same damage per shot, in a shorter time, with a more reactive aim experience, which is a shit tonne of hitscan pressure compared to every one else.
    To talk about Evie trying to fight Strix, 1 headshot is her whole HP pool w/o haven, with no prefire charge... I deem that too much power considering Evie will need 3 hits on you, a lot of mobility and not to get assaulted while attempting to attack you from the core of your team. Kin has to hold charge and tunnel vision, Strix gets a less restrictions and the invis to gain advantage at range.
    Which just makes him out class Kinessa and Sha Lin in casual ques in performace unless he has a long range reveal counter, which are too few characters.
    I'm not even mad at Strix dealing high damage at range, its just its very reliable at any range with no hinderances, while other characters do not have the same easy to land attack, and may suffer range, spread, prefire, that deters their dps, this comes out fast and hard with a bit above average damage dps with nothing to stop it other then player accuracy and LoS cover. If it has no hinderances, why does it deal so much damage and gain the added ability to potentially 1 shot evie from a quickscope.

    I agree that the design of Damage & Flanks could need to be better in some ways, but it is to do with abilities that provide pressure before enguagement to properly threaten and zone tanks and foes with an area advantage, not brain dead higher damage needed to kill squishies faster, crushing the team and denying shields and deployables without the need for item utility.

    Okay, we are in agreement as to Strix's status as being better than other champions. But look at his winrate. It's the 4th lowest damage with a winrate of 44%. That's because unlike most champions in this game, what you need to perform with Strix is raw aiming ability. So I think we need to take the other aim-centric champions, i.e. Lian, Cassie, and Kinessa to name a few obviously similar champions, and make them be able to perform as well as Strix does in the right hands. Flat damage buffs are a good start. While doing that we can also remove the cancerous, uncounterable, unskilled mechanics from these champions such as invis, flashbangs, or Lian's ult and autoaim mechanics.

    Evie should by no means be able to out DPS Strix. Not only do her ice attacks have huge hitboxes requiring less aim than Strix does, but she has some of the most insane mobility in the game. Strix is the only champion I even feel comfortable 1v1ing a good Evie with. If you take Cassie, I'm aware good Cassie players can 1v1 good Evie players with her but as a mediocre Cassie player? I'm sitting here with both less DPS and less mobility than Evie, as well as having to hit a flying target with a small projectile while she has to hit a sitting target with a huge projectile.

    For me I'd like to see champion switching, and I'd like to see Strix become more of a niche champion for when you want to sit at the back of the map and snipe, while other aim based DPS such as those I've mentioned and maybe Androxus and Lex take more of the front seat by being as deadly as Strix is, at close and medium ranges.

    EDIT: Just to expand on the winrates, it's pretty telling. You see the less aim intensive champions across the board doing better. Vivian, Tyra, Bomb King, Drogoz and even Dredge all do better than Strix, Cassie, Lian, and Kinessa. That's because those champions not only barely have to aim to do lots of damage, but have massively overtuned kits besides their normal attacks that help them on every level. I dream of a day where as dumb and short ranged a champion as Bomb King is confined to low ELO spammers, while champions like Strix, Cassie, Kinessa, Andro, etc are what rules the meta at the top of the game.

    EDIT EDIT: I'm also averse to buffing Lex because, even though he's an aim-based carry champion, he's an abominable character design that desperately needs a rework.



  • @taikonaut
    You cannot accurately summerise the state of affairs, purely bassed on win rate of champions.
    The only stats I translate champion win rate to is a champions overall team and map synergy, maybe even overall champion power level if you are using the higher elo ones.
    Many people try to read more, but there are a lot of variables you have to consider, such as player skill and skill ceiling, and people playing with commonsense and without, as well as all the bots, bad apples and all the games without proper team synergy.
    Overall Win rate is not the best defining fact when your playerbase is has various skill levels of plep to plepstomper.

    As for Cassie, there are a lot of bad Cassie players who just walk into fights.
    When Cassie is all about fighting someone who is not paying attention to you.

    As for Lian, there are a lot of bad Lian's. But I will state that Lian is a duelist made to kill squishies and is never been the best at applying point pressure, only sutting down abilities that can be shut down by damage items.

    The interesting thing about damage is you have to design them to zone a tank back with hostility, but still make them balenced vs squisy targets.



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @taikonaut
    You cannot accurately summerise the state of affairs, purely bassed on win rate of champions.
    The only stats I translate champion win rate to is a champions overall team and map synergy, maybe even overall champion power level if you are using the higher elo ones.
    Many people try to read more, but there are a lot of variables you have to consider, such as player skill and skill ceiling, and people playing with commonsense and without, as well as all the bots, bad apples and all the games without proper team synergy.
    Overall Win rate is not the best defining fact when your playerbase is has various skill levels of plep to plepstomper.

    As for Cassie, there are a lot of bad Cassie players who just walk into fights.
    When Cassie is all about fighting someone who is not paying attention to you.

    As for Lian, there are a lot of bad Lian's. But I will state that Lian is a duelist made to kill squishies and is never been the best at applying point pressure, only sutting down abilities that can be shut down by damage items.

    The interesting thing about damage is you have to design them to zone a tank back with hostility, but still make them balenced vs squisy targets.

    Well it's just interesting that Cassie, Lian, and Strix all have below average to terrible winrates, yet are consistently billed as OP. Honestly I don't think anyone who's good enough at aiming to enjoy playing these champions would call them OP, in fact it's a difficult and frustrating experience, even sometimes as Strix, playing these champions and consistently out aiming the enemy, yet still losing because they have huge weapon hitboxes or splash damage or overpowered kits.



  • @Nero-di-seppia said in The balance of Damage champions:

    @taikonaut
    Another non-costructive thread in my opinion.
    You keep insisting with comparing every champion with strix and saying that everyone should be effective and easy like him.
    But you also say that strix requires skill and must be nerfed. This is controversial.

    1. if you really want to compare, don't take strix as an example, he's broken and if every character was as easy as him, the game would completely change style and die. (Lol imagine trying to play a support or flank against a full damage class made of STRIX )
    2. inform yourself and play a champion before complaining.
      You did it before with cassie, and now you're doing it with lian. Hirez themselves said that theese 2 girls are estremelly powerful even in a mediocre player's hands.
      It seems that you want them to be changed just because YOU don't like them.
      P.S. fighting against androxus, even if he's really good player, it's not that hard, especially when you're playing the broken trio STRIX, CASSIE, LIAN. Androxus has recently lost most of his power, meave and evie are much harder to fight.

    Stop with theese threads, you only get downvoted because it seems that you want to turn paladins into a noskill version of COD.

    Yeah well, I like playing Strix, Cassie, Lian, and Androxus because these champions are the ones where I get to spend most of my time aiming. However, they vary in how well my aim is rewarded. With Strix I can easily delete most characters at any range. With Androxus it's a real struggle to win any sort of fight, even at close ranges. So obviously there's something wrong with the balance there. What I don't want to happen is for it to become a struggle to accomplish anything with Strix, so the obvious solution from my point of view is to make characters like those I've mentioned as strong as Strix is. And no I do not think characters like Mal Damba, Furia, Maeve, or Evie should have a place in the meta as they just don't revolve around aim as much.

    It's not that I want it to be a noskill version of COD, it's more like I want a more interesting, funner version of CSGO or Quake, with cool characters, magical abilities, but at the end of the day a game essentially revolves around having good aim and positioning.

    And why would I care about downvotes? On Reddit downvotes punish you by limiting the number of responses you can make at a time, limiting the visibility of your posts, and ultimately apparently resulting in some sort of shadowban system. What's the equivalent here? I don't even bother to upvote or downvote anyone's posts because I don't see the point (Haha) in that system.


  • PC

    Champion switching is an absolute cancer, one of the reasons I prefer paladins than overwatch but it could work as a game mode instead of the whole game.

    By the way looks like there are only 3 champs for you (strix, cassie and lian) and you think them are the most difficult in the game but I have to inform you that like 1/2 of the flank roster, 1/3 of the frontline and support roster and 1/4 of the damage roster are more difficult than them. Aim doesn't mean skill and importance in the meta that's a dumb statement.

    You are downvoted because almost no one agree with you, everyone is free on what to do their votes and if people from Hi Rez read this they can tell which opinion is more popular just like in reddit.



  • @ShogunPukin said in The balance of Damage champions:

    Champion switching is an absolute cancer, one of the reasons I prefer paladins than overwatch but it could work as a game mode instead of the whole game.

    By the way looks like there are only 3 champs for you (strix, cassie and lian) and you think them are the most difficult in the game but I have to inform you that like 1/2 of the flank roster, 1/3 of the frontline and support roster and 1/4 of the damage roster are more difficult than them. Aim doesn't mean skill and importance in the meta that's a dumb statement.

    You are downvoted because almost no one agree with you, everyone is free on what to do their votes and if people from Hi Rez read this they can tell which opinion is more popular just like in reddit.

    I don't know. TF2 and OW are both leagues more popular than Paladins and both have more casual format with champion switching and ability to exit the match. TF2 even has unlimited number of champions per team ie more than one person can play Soldier. I think both of those would do Paladins a great service by making the game more relaxed, accessible, and less rigidly structured. What is it you hate about champion switching? I'm assuming this is based off Overwatch as I haven't met anyone who complains about the lack of restriction in TF2.

    It's not necessarily that the champs I'm talking about are the most difficult, it's that by and large they don't have the same crutches other champions do. Evie and Maeve have crazy mobility. Koga, Zhin, and Moji have invulnerability. BK barely has to aim to do huge amounts of damage with his mid air detonations. The entire frontline class is just insanely overpowered.



  • Look honestly, you can't really trust the commonfolk here and everywhere about what is OP and what is not.
    Don't trust me, either... I am a tank who also plays chad supports and tyra as a frontline counter with area denial damage. I don't try to get myself killed. If I die in less the 2s to 1 foe I get a bit annoyed though, but is't rare.
    Opinions are divided on player skill, experience, mentallity and how bad that player was crushed into the dirt by it previously.

    People call characters OP too quickly here, its more of just a vent of frustration if anything.
    Unless they seriously touch upon the dynamics, try to explain why it is Strong relative to characters of the same class, you don't get much out of it otherwise.
    This is how I feel about Atlas and everyone saying he is too strong, personally I find him a good average, people rave about his features, but I personally do not think they are all that powerful compared to some features other champs in his category have.

    Thus I have my opinions on Strix, without actually hating to fight him as much as everyone here seems to hate hearing about him existing. I just think secure hitscan is strong and does not need to be above average damage to have a definitive impact with that hit security vs squishies.

    But as I said I am a tank... I like to brawl with my foes.
    I dislike math like 1200 + 1200.. it is too easy.


Log in to reply