Enough with the childlike champions



  • @Rauyne said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    @taikonaut

    So you want something more realistic..something less Fantasy? Paladins is set in a fantasy world, their design choices have worked out for them for the most part. Not to mention skins are non-canon to the Lore and are visual overrides only, so skins shouldn't matter to the actual game other than to customization.

    No, I like sci fi and fantasy, as it offers a lot more gameplay mechanics than grimdark realism does. Star Wars and LOTR are epic sci fi and fantasy series. But they can be ruined by characters like Jar Jar Binks, or the Hobbit's weird aesthetic and design choices (although the Hobbit was always a children's story).



  • @taikonaut Let's just say EM have something for everyone. If you wanna play child-like girl or tailed "child-like girl with boobs" you can do it, as well as play cold blooded veteran sniper, undead pirate captain or bratty goblin in exoskeleton combat suit with miniguns. From over 40 champions we have arguably 4 that we can discuss in this topic. Less than 10 percent! It was done to cover bigger player base. Not everyone have the same moral and interests you have, you know?



  • @JoeTheMoonwalker said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    @taikonaut Let's just say EM have something for everyone. If you wanna play child-like girl or tailed "child-like girl with boobs" you can do it, as well as play cold blooded veteran sniper, undead pirate captain or bratty goblin in exoskeleton combat suit with miniguns. From over 40 champions we have arguably 4 that we can discuss in this topic. Less than 10 percent! It was done to cover bigger player base. Not everyone have the same moral and interests you have, you know?

    I know, but I wouldn't think CSGO would embarrass itself by including, for example, an astronaut skin. It's important to have a coherent and especially an attractive design direction. To me, little girls just aren't that attractive. Like I said these characters can exist and it'd be fine by me, but I think they should be joke, incidental characters that see very little playtime. It's difficult to take a 10 year old French cat burglar seriously, so I don't see why she should be a serious part of the meta. It's not so much the fact that these characters are in the game, as the lack of high quality characters like Cassie to offset them, which I find problematic. If I want to play as a cool, respectable character, I have a very limited number of choices. Some of the characters I find interesting and attractive:

    • Cassie
    • Strix
    • Drogoz
    • Bomb King
    • Androxus

    These are all cool, powerful characters. However, there aren't a lot of characters like them. Or you have characters that are cool and powerful like Sha Lin or Furia, and they have useless gameplay. And then you have weird brats like Evie or Maeve which are exceedingly meta. I know I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill here, but I guess when I made this thread my mind was on the track of: it would be so much better if these meta characters had more interesting, charismatic, powerful designs than just being bratty little children. HiRez has to decide whether it wants to make a game for children or a game for adults, which might sound like a silly distinction but it's just like movies for children and movies for adults, or like playing soccer in an absurd setting such as a carnival vs playing soccer in a standard field (I have never played soccer)



  • @taikonaut
    Why do you even have in mind, that some characters must have little playtime? Ideally all characters, as it is so called "hero shooter" (yep, that was intentional), shall have more or less equal playtime, basing in their ability kit first and appearance second (or maybe even third).

    Things that are fun and interesting for you are not always the same for others. For example: you say you like Strix, good. I don't like him. I don't like cold-blooded vicious seasoned murderers with no heart. But I kinda like Evie's fiery personality, unlike you. Also unlike you I don't scream my heart out to somehow remove characters I don't like either.

    About meta, well, Cassie and Strix are meta. Why meta should be based on personalities rather than on ability kits and overall usefulness of champions? Likeability is subjective, but the balance is not.

    At last can you explain, how Cassie is a high quality characters and, say, Evie is not?



  • @JoeTheMoonwalker said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    @taikonaut
    Why do you even have in mind, that some characters must have little playtime? Ideally all characters, as it is so called "hero shooter" (yep, that was intentional), shall have more or less equal playtime, basing in their ability kit first and appearance second (or maybe even third).

    I don't think so. For one thing, in TF2 the OG hero shooter the characters don't have equal playtime. For another thing, it'd be pretty difficult to prevent a stable meta from forming in which a core of 10-20 champs out of 40-100 or however many you intend to have in the game are the ones that are mostly played at higher levels. For another thing, there's plenty of ideas for playstyles and unique heroes that naturally have low skill ceilings or high skill floors, and that naturally results in different amounts of playtime for those characters. I certainly don't equate equal skill to Zhin's ability management and Cassie's aiming ability. I think Cassie has to manage abilities just as well as Zhin, while also having to do huge amounts of aim and not having easy get out of jail free cards such as becoming invulnerable. So I don't think Zhin should be meta at higher levels, because it just isn't as high skill a character as Cassie. I certainly find it abhorrent that Moji is being played in the PPL, for example. However, it just occurred to me after writing all this that this is all kind of diverging from the thread's topic, which is the aesthetics of the champions, not their playstyles. I guess I'd prefer the meta heroes to replace Maeve with Androxus, for example, because Androxus is a cool enough champion that I enjoy playing him. Androxus is a big serious death personified type of guy, while Maeve is a weird little cat burglar.

    Things that are fun and interesting for you are not always the same for others. For example: you say you like Strix, good. I don't like him. I don't like cold-blooded vicious seasoned murderers with no heart. But I kinda like Evie's fiery personality, unlike you. Also unlike you I don't scream my heart out to somehow remove characters I don't like either.

    Well again it's not so much the existence of Maeve, Evie, and Io that's a problem, it's the lack of cool characters like those I've mentioned. I'd be fine with those characters continuing to exist as is if the next 50 characters were all like BK, Andro, Strix, Cassie, Viktor, Drogoz, even Zhin and Sha have epic character designs with unfortunately poor gameplay. They're all warriors. If Evie is going to be a witch, make her a scary sorceress, not a weird little anime girl.

    About meta, well, Cassie and Strix are meta. Why meta should be based on personalities rather than on ability kits and overall usefulness of champions? Likeability is subjective, but the balance is not.

    Well I'd just prefer the weird non-serious champions like Maeve and Moji to be relegated to non-serious roles is my point. I'm fine with them being in the game as long as they aren't a big part of it.

    At last can you explain, how Cassie is a high quality characters and, say, Evie is not?

    Well, Cassie is highly attractive. She doesn't have neon blue hair and clothing, she has an attractive female body and face, her gameplay is fun and casual, and her voice radiates optimism and strength. Evie sounds whiny and stupid, and like I said has an annoying blue color, has a weird childlike body, and her gameplay requires incredible amounts of energy. All that said, I still play Evie and Maeve from time to time, because I'm aware of how meta they are so I feel like I should be able to play them, plus their mobility is obviously a lot of fun.



  • @taikonaut said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    I don't think so. For one thing, in TF2 the OG hero shooter the characters don't have equal playtime. For another thing, it'd be pretty difficult to prevent a stable meta from forming in which a core of 10-20 champs out of 40-100 or however many you intend to have in the game are the ones that are mostly played at higher levels. For another thing, there's plenty of ideas for playstyles and unique heroes that naturally have low skill ceilings or high skill floors, and that naturally results in different amounts of playtime for those characters. I certainly don't equate equal skill to Zhin's ability management and Cassie's aiming ability. I think Cassie has to manage abilities just as well as Zhin, while also having to do huge amounts of aim and not having easy get out of jail free cards such as becoming invulnerable. So I don't think Zhin should be meta at higher levels, because it just isn't as high skill a character as Cassie. I certainly find it abhorrent that Moji is being played in the PPL, for example. However, it just occurred to me after writing all this that this is all kind of diverging from the thread's topic, which is the aesthetics of the champions, not their playstyles. I guess I'd prefer the meta heroes to replace Maeve with Androxus, for example, because Androxus is a cool enough champion that I enjoy playing him. Androxus is a big serious death personified type of guy, while Maeve is a weird little cat burglar.

    I said ideally. Of course there're nothing ideal in this world and champions can't have equal playtime while being different from each other. But it is the thing every developer shall aim at - the perfect balance.
    If you consider Paladins as high competitive E-sport game(or wannabe one) your topic is pointless, cuz noone speaks seriously about characters and lore in E-sports, and if you don't then let everyone have their own fun with characters they prefer.

    Well again it's not so much the existence of Maeve, Evie, and Io that's a problem, it's the lack of cool characters like those I've mentioned. I'd be fine with those characters continuing to exist as is if the next 50 characters were all like BK, Andro, Strix, Cassie, Viktor, Drogoz, even Zhin and Sha have epic character designs with unfortunately poor gameplay. They're all warriors. If Evie is going to be a witch, make her a scary sorceress, not a weird little anime girl.

    Is that some kind of racism to witches thinking that all of them shall be a wicked scarry sorceresses? You can't have all the warriors, you know?

    Well I'd just prefer the weird non-serious champions like Maeve and Moji to be relegated to non-serious roles is my point. I'm fine with them being in the game as long as they aren't a big part of it.

    There's no thing like "no serious role". Basically you say that "non-serious" characters must be weaker than "serious" characters of the same role to reduce their playtime, and that is idiotic.

    Well, Cassie is highly attractive. She doesn't have neon blue hair and clothing, she has an attractive female body and face, her gameplay is fun and casual, and her voice radiates optimism and strength. Evie sounds whiny and stupid, and like I said has an annoying blue color, has a weird childlike body, and her gameplay requires incredible amounts of energy. All that said, I still play Evie and Maeve from time to time, because I'm aware of how meta they are so I feel like I should be able to play them, plus their mobility is obviously a lot of fun.

    All you said there is subjective, in exception of voice lines that do radiate optimism. All of this doesn't make her a great character, it makes her a great character for you, get my point?

    All in all, you have your vision. Your vision is subjective, like anyone else's vision is. The bad thing is, that you try to bring up your subjective vision as objective truth and make everyone and everything bend under it. It's a great way to make a rivalry with others, as you might observe. Noone said that "yeah, man you're totally right, let's do it as you say", but whole bunch of people tells you, that you are wrong. Think about it.



  • @JoeTheMoonwalker said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    I said ideally. Of course there're nothing ideal in this world and champions can't have equal playtime while being different from each other. But it is the thing every developer shall aim at - the perfect balance.

    Nah. You have Cassie, which takes perfect aim and game sense. Then you have Zhin with his huge projectile hitboxes and millions of get out of jail free cards. There's no way those two champions should have equal impact on the meta. The fact that Evie and Maeve are meta is testament to HiRez's game design, since those two are pretty high skill, both like I said, I'm not a huge fan of their character designs. I just don't see the need to have rugrats running around the battlefield except at lower ELOs where people don't know what they're doing.

    If you consider Paladins as high competitive E-sport game(or wannabe one) your topic is pointless, cuz noone speaks seriously about characters and lore in E-sports, and if you don't then let everyone have their own fun with characters they prefer.

    E sports and world creation are highly intertwined. You can't have one without the other. The E Sports CSGO and R6 Siege are rigidly restricted by the confines of realism. Overwatch is highly restricted by its sci fi universe. Paladins doesn't really seem to have too many barriers in place to keep its universe from spilling out over the edges. I'd like a serious Gothic fantasy world with sci fi elements, since that's what the core design seems to be, rather than a goofball playground full of nonsensical joke characters. It's just a higher quality aesthetic.

    Is that some kind of racism to witches thinking that all of them shall be a wicked scarry sorceresses? You can't have all the warriors, you know?

    Well, you have a few different types of witches. HiRez opted for the anime schoolgirl witch, while I prefer the epic Morvana (or whatever her name is) sorceress who actually would be scary and intimidating to face. In general I think Paladins is too goofy and childlike in its design.

    There's no thing like "no serious role". Basically you say that "non-serious" characters must be weaker than "serious" characters of the same role to reduce their playtime, and that is idiotic.

    Dunno what's idiotic about that. I'm fine with dummy cat freaks (Maeve players) running about with their weird running animations, but I don't think they should be a core part of the gameplay experience. It's just not a very sophisticated design, it's pretty goofy. Androxus is a much more potent character.

    All you said there is subjective, in exception of voice lines that do radiate optimism. All of this doesn't make her a great character, it makes her a great character for you, get my point?

    Okay, and I'm explaining what I like about the character, while you're telling me that... I'm explaining what I like about the character. Not getting a lot of feedback from this comment.

    All in all, you have your vision. Your vision is subjective, like anyone else's vision is. The bad thing is, that you try to bring up your subjective vision as objective truth and make everyone and everything bend under it. It's a great way to make a rivalry with others, as you might observe. Noone said that "yeah, man you're totally right, let's do it as you say", but whole bunch of people tells you, that you are wrong. Think about it.

    I think probably my vision is a bit controversial, that's about it



  • @taikonaut
    About E- sports: we have Dota and LoL, both are top notch in E-sports. Are their developers concerned about having all aesthetics in line? Not really. We can have exa-robo-suits and planes fight alongside with a dragon breathing both fire and ice and a dumbbell ogre. As I said, lore has almost nothing to do with competitive part of the game.

    About witches. Well, it's your opinion. It's nice you have it. I have mine. It differs from yours. No problem there. The problem is, that I only have an opinion, and you try to force everyone else to share yours, arguing anyone, who don't want to do it.

    About Cassie, I didn't ask you to tell me what do you like in her. I asked to tell you, what differs her from Evie, that makes her a better character. You told me about attractive body. Well, what if I tell you, that I don't think Cassie's body is attractive, huh? You may say nothing, because it's a subjective judgement, not objective like having well made and touching backstory (though it's still a bit subjective, but way less than appearance) or something. You didn't convinced me she is a well designed character, while Evie is not, that's the point. You've only described what you personally like about her.

    Your vision is controversial for sure. But the way you bring it up is much like "I don't like what you like, that means is what you like sucks!!!". If you had decent arguments to prove your vision, then it might be taken in consideration by community, but you have (or show) nothing of it. That makes everyone to think that you are are a weirdo (no offense intended), who either too stupid to understand that he goes against the whole community, or wants to show each and everyone that he's so special having different options. For either of the situations I see no reasons to continue breastbeating around this topic. Not with you and your lack of good reasons. Log out.



  • @JoeTheMoonwalker said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    @taikonaut
    About E- sports: we have Dota and LoL, both are top notch in E-sports. Are their developers concerned about having all aesthetics in line? Not really. We can have exa-robo-suits and planes fight alongside with a dragon breathing both fire and ice and a dumbbell ogre. As I said, lore has almost nothing to do with competitive part of the game.

    Wel, first of all those games are much less personal than a first person shooter. You don't have in your face 3d characters, giant gun models, voicepacks, stuff like that. So with that in mind, it's important to keep a solid aesthetic. Which is why CSGO has it's dusty counter terrorism, R6 has its edgy high tech thriller vibe, TF2 has its bureaucratic warfighting feeling, and Overwatch has its near-future high tech gadgets stuff. Paladins can't be a sci fi game, a fantasy game, AND a general goof off game. It's too random, not concerted enough, and too confusing and distracting and messy. Personally I would think sci fi would be the way to go as you can still have fantasy vibes in a sci fi universe (see for reference, Star Wars), while it being mainly about guns and such not swords. I mean Zhin is just archaic. Sha Lin is archaic. Fernando is pretty medieval. Shooters are all about high technology, while MOBAs are more about magical abilities, so sci fi makes more sense. You can have Cassie with her magical crossbow be sort of like Chewbacca and his crossbow-shaped blaster, but the main focus should be on gunfighters like Strix, Viktor, and Androxus.

    About witches. Well, it's your opinion. It's nice you have it. I have mine. It differs from yours. No problem there. The problem is, that I only have an opinion, and you try to force everyone else to share yours, arguing anyone, who don't want to do it.

    I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm explaining, carefully, the opinions I hold, and why I hold them. If that offends you, then that's a reflection of your own views of my opinion, not because there's something wrong with how I'm expressing my opinion.

    About Cassie, I didn't ask you to tell me what do you like in her. I asked to tell you, what differs her from Evie, that makes her a better character. You told me about attractive body. Well, what if I tell you, that I don't think Cassie's body is attractive, huh? You may say nothing, because it's a subjective judgement, not objective like having well made and touching backstory (though it's still a bit subjective, but way less than appearance) or something. You didn't convinced me she is a well designed character, while Evie is not, that's the point. You've only described what you personally like about her.

    Well yeah, you ask what I think is better about Cassie, so I said what I think is better about Cassie. I like her appearance, her voice, her gameplay, her color scheme, everything about her is quite top notch. I sincerely hope that after Paladins inevitably fails (since it seems to be headed in that direction at this point) they retain Cassie for future projects, as she is quite a nice character, far better than any of the female characters in Overwatch for example (although I am quite partial to McCree), and of course disengage is a wonderful mechanic.

    Your vision is controversial for sure. But the way you bring it up is much like "I don't like what you like, that means is what you like sucks!!!". If you had decent arguments to prove your vision, then it might be taken in consideration by community, but you have (or show) nothing of it. That makes everyone to think that you are are a weirdo (no offense intended), who either too stupid to understand that he goes against the whole community, or wants to show each and everyone that he's so special having different options. For either of the situations I see no reasons to continue breastbeating around this topic. Not with you and your lack of good reasons. Log out.

    I'm not against the whole community. I come from a larger FPS background and want to see a game that so far has not arrived, which is a highly competitive skill based arena shooter. Quake is too arcadey for that. CSGO is too hard and restrictive. R6 requires too much metaknowledge. Overwatch is incredibly sluggish and poorly designed. This game, while better than Overwatch, suffers from major problems. I've talked a lot about them in other threads, and in this thread I am talking about one of the most egregious flaws with the world creation in Paladins, which is the catering to childlike character designs, which in my opinion contributes nothing and enables a toxic, possibly pedophilic section of the community which the rest of us I'm sure find quite bizarre. Frankly it's insulting to me that a character as stellar as Cassie has to share a universe with the subject of pedophile attention, Maeve the 12 year old French cat burglar who throws knives at people and is constantly bouncing about like a weird monkey. Even worse, Maeve is one of the strongest characters in the game despite her absurd appearance, so I have to deal with her all the time. It's quite absurd. The poor Overwatch fans don't have a single attractive female character they can call their own, unlike us with Cassie and (I say this begrudgingly) Lian. The only proper female they have is actually colored blue, because the blood's been sucked out of her skin, and her gameplay is awful. So it's not as bad as it could be. Of course Overwatch has its weird school-age female characters as well, and they are popular with similar segments of the community.

    To expand on what I'm saying... although this thread started out as a rant against Maeve and Io, and more in particular was directed against the pedophilic elements of the community that literally sexualize these childlike characters, after that initial mood wore off, and also due to the chiding of a moderator to avoid discussion of sexuality, I feel my main problem with the design of females in Paladins is there aren't enough attractive ones. You have Cassie who is a pretty amazing character. You have Lian who is nehhh very rude, white haired, and dresses funny (and probably smells funny). Tyra's barely even a character, Vivian's incredibly dumb, Furia's personality is unfortunately wasted on a boring healer character, and then we have this toxic trio of Io, Maeve, and Evie who are practically children rather than women. If fighting games are full of attractive, powerful, adult women, why can't hero FPS be so as well?



  • @taikonaut said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    Here are some images where we can compare Maeve to the typical adult female human, Cassie.

    Oh, so where you live a typical adult female has breasts of the size of her head.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    @taikonaut said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    Here are some images where we can compare Maeve to the typical adult female human, Cassie.

    Oh, so where you live a typical adult female has breasts of the size of her head.

    No, but it's definitely an appealing character design, in much the same way as Strix's huge biceps make him an appealing character. Which is why for example fighting games are full of women and men with statuesque proportions.

    Edit: I mean rereading your post, are you complaining about Cassie's boobs? Because they're obviously pretty well proportioned.

    Edit edit: I bet you also think Strix's arms are too big, and he should have realistic, lanky, sniper arms like realistic snipers do.



  • @jocasela said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    half naked all the time.

    also Term, it's just really easy to not notice, at least for me



  • @taikonaut said in Enough with the childlike champions:

    chicken-hat Strix skin?

    the bold bird emote is hillarious to watch imo



  • @taikonaut the problem with you is not your opinion but the fact that you want to enforce your opinion on the entire game and judge people that would play beside you by the character design they like and wantto off a lot of favourites simply because they are not to your liking. I am not petitioning against your overly serious characters. The reason I love paladins so much is exactly because of the fact that there is a flavour of character for everyone. You want to off that flavour and leave a bitter taste in peoples mouthes. Complaining about real issues is one thing but aesthetics. Go enjoy your characters and leave others be or find a different game to intoxicate with your biased views.


  • Moderator

    Pls don't necro.

    Closed.


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