Talents Need Viability



  • @IIMirage99II said in Talents Need Viability:

    Most, if not all of you, would easily say Wormhole.

    But what relevance has this? Judged by better meta at skill 2100 (gold) wormhole has the lowest winrate. So that everyone and their mother plays talent X and thinks it's the best doesn't mean this actually is the case. Take Seris. Her winrate was always low while her popularity was alway very good, in average she is the 2nd worst healer (except Damba) while everybody plays her and believes she is great. The only time when Seris winrate actually was good, her popularity reached almost 80% (and the other 20% she was probably banned).

    So if you just wish that all three talents for each champion were equally viable and just about equally used I'd say this is impossible.

    I agree that every talent should be viable, and they already improved this by reducing from 4 to 3 talents, removing lots of crap talents.



  • @IIMirage99II Thx for the offer but I prefer just using the forums XD.



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  • @taikonaut said in Talents Need Viability:

    but do you have any ideas for for example Evie talents that might be able to compete with Wormhole?

    do not increase OTM dmg, or she'll be 2 shotting supports.

    snowglode, maybe give her Dr while casting it?

    or make it into a projectile so she isn't locked in animation while ulting.



  • @taikonaut Replace Snow Globe with Reprieve for one. Buff Over the Moon's damage 20%-->30% for 3 seconds after soar.

    I generally think to balance, the talents should be different but based on different abilities. Flanks should have 3 different talents: 1 that provides additional sustain, one that provides increased damage, and one that provides increased mobility. Healers should have 3 different talents: 1 related to cc, 1 that provides more healing, and one that provides more damage. Tanks should have 3 different talents: 1 related to cc, one that provides more damage, and 1 that provides more defense. I don't know what to do with damages. Perhaps something like Cassie where you could get a buff to a different ability with a different talent: exaction buffs dodge roll, impluse buffs blastshower, and big game buffs disengage.



  • @HeartQueen replacing snow globe is a bad idea. Its the only viable card evie has besides wormhole. Over the moon is the card that either needs a rework or a buff in some way without one that has her 2 shotting snipers or supports. It might be counterable by blast shields but its still not too cheap but thats just my opinion.
    And yes all champs should have 3 different talents with different playstyles.



  • @Nero-di-seppia said in Talents Need Viability:

    A talent that makes you play so safe, thanks to the spammable blink that also heals you, is obviously better than an ULTIMATE talent and a talent that only gives bonus damage.

    No it's not. A talent that allows me to ult much more often can be extremely strong depending on how strong the ult is.



  • @SNIper-poTAto said in Talents Need Viability:

    @HeartQueen replacing snow globe is a bad idea. Its the only viable card evie has besides wormhole. Over the moon is the card that either needs a rework or a buff in some way without one that has her 2 shotting snipers or supports. It might be counterable by blast shields but its still not too cheap but thats just my opinion.
    And yes all champs should have 3 different talents with different playstyles.

    Personally, I just dislike talents centered around ults. Maybe reprieve isn't the right answer though.



  • The fundamental problem is that certain talents are the only viable ones. Try being a solo healing Ying in ranked, and not picking Life Exchange. Try being Io without Life Link. Even moving away from supports. Trying being Viktor without Burst Mode, Willo without Blastflower, Torvald without Field Study (pre-nerf), Skye without Debilitate, etc. At this point, certain talents are the only must pick on certain champions. That means their base kit needs rework.

    Ying needs healing buffed at her base kit. Until then, Life Exchange is the only pick that doesn't tilt people (unless you're doing Focusing Lens in a double support team). Willo needs a rework for her talents, until then, blast flower is the only viable one. Skye needs an all around rework at this point, same with Torvald. Then some talents are just useless. Say what you want about Resonance Ying and Slug Shot Ash, but at least those talents work in certain niche situations. Inara's Tremors talent never works though. No reason to get Night Shade Willo ever (you can 1v1 flanks better with blast flower). What is the point of Bulk Up for Buck? Why would you ever get Spirit's Domain for Grohk?



  • @HeartQueen
    Some of what you said is true. I dont like picking non-healbot talent in ranked unless im playing seris, which is only becuz teams get tilted too much. But I do pick FL on her in casual. Her base healing could use a buff but its decent with the right playstyle. Viktor's other talents are viable with shrapnel being underrated or maybe overshadowed. Willo has nightshade as a viable choice, I prefer it on her becuz of deadzones speed card which gives me occasional flanking capabilities and the occasional 1000 dmg combo which can help me finish low hp players(it could use a small buff). Scorn is the card that needs a rework. Torvald needs a rework as well, but Skye is fine as she is right now after Decrepify's rework which made Preparation viable even in Ranked(EDIT: what she could use is a buff to any talent besides Debilitate), https://mypaladins.com/player/15336755/potatosnlper
    Im only using my stats to prove my point on Skyes other talents becuz shes considered a troll pick without deb. This is all I have to say against some of your points on the champs you mentioned. But still some champs like Buck, Torvald need a kit rework while talents like Tremors and Bulk Up needs to be changed.



  • @HeartQueen said in Talents Need Viability:

    The fundamental problem is that certain talents are the only viable ones. Try being a solo healing Ying in ranked, and not picking Life Exchange. Try being Io without Life Link. Even moving away from supports. Trying being Viktor without Burst Mode, Willo without Blastflower, Torvald without Field Study (pre-nerf), Skye without Debilitate, etc. At this point, certain talents are the only must pick on certain champions. That means their base kit needs rework.

    Ying had a 2nd viable talent with life-like they just removed it though it was her most played Talent except Life-Exchange (and had a good winrate). Viktor below Diamond is playable with Cardio. Shrapnel was his best Talent before they nerfed it. This is a crucial point I think. There are viable talents they just get removed or nerfed so they get useless.

    Skye is a character for low ranks. Invisibility either doesn't work on high skill matches or it is so strong that at low ranks it's easy win.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0
    Life like was good but the current life exchange is honestly her better healbot talent which could be the reason why they removed it. Cardio is still decent on high skill matches especially with the DR card on hustle, it helps him out late-caut and he can heal himself after cleansing caut which is one less person to worry about for the healer. That and the fact that his base kit is pretty good is another reason Cardio is decent at best. Skye isnt a bad character. She is only good in the right hands. She has a tiny skill floor but a huge skill ceiling. While using Debilitate, she cant flank and then becomes a dmg dealer in late game becuz of illuminate. Decrepify is a must pick in high ranks to get the most out of your dmg due to bad mobility. Id rather not talk about Prep cuz its not a card for non-skye players even if they are high in ranks. Can u tell me why u think skye is low tier? This thread is not about her so lets talk about it further in PM cuz this discussion could maybe derail the thread.



  • @SNIper-poTAto

    Life Like had better winrates than Life Exchange when it was still there. I anyway think that it's not so important if all Talents are good, the point is if all Talents are attractive and get played. Even a bad Talent can be good if the player finds new effective ways to use it.

    About Skye: If you look here then you see that Skye has an average winrate at low skill (compared to other champs) then her winrate gets worse till she has the lowest winrate of all flanks at high skill.


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