The problems with skye



  • With patch ob54, the RIP-MOBILITY one, the "flank" definition was changed, but not officialy announced.
    In fact, if we want to know how the flank class works, we only have a tutorial, made 2 years ago, when the flank concept was totally different.
    Before ob54, the flankers, according to the tutorial, were described like this:
    "Champions able to get in enemy's backline and kill squishy targets. Mobility and timing are keys here, since flankers are meant to get in a tight spot, kill a target and get back to safety.
    They're always searching for low health and retreating targets (squishies).
    But with high reward, comes high risk! With all that mobility and damage, the flank pay the price of low HP"
    The tutorial however, didn't say that their damage is effective only at close range and their low HP can be restored with great self-sustain abilities.
    But it doesn't matter, you get the concept.
    Get close, kill the damager/support, get out...
    High risk, high reward characters who used to take a lot of skill and be very impactful.

    After all the mobility the nerfs, the definition was unofficialy changed.
    And I say unofficialy because we don't have any tutorial or guide that actually describes flankers as they work right now.
    If we want to know the difference, we have to compare, with the help of a changelog, the old flankers with the current ones.
    The only source of info we have, is a short clip, taken from a recent patch preview, where Martini, quickly describes flankers as:
    "Slightly more mobile damage characters, with more burst, and discrete moments of high survivability".

    Slightly more mobile damage dealers... well, in some cases it's true, in some cases it isn't.
    Some flankers can barely move if you don't use certain cards.
    Some tanks, supports and damagers have way better moviment than some flankers.
    More burst, yes that's correct.
    "discrete moments of high survivability"... that is contradictory too, because there are a lot of exceptions... some flankers don't even have survivability skills if you don't use a specific loadout.
    But let's assume that all flankers work fine, as martini says.

    There would still be an exeption, skye.
    No matter what flank we're talking about, preob54, postob54, off meta, top tier... skye will always be different.
    Skye can't work as a flanker. Why?? Because she doesn't depend on "mobility" or "high survibability" like the others.
    Instead of theese things, she has stealth, she depends on it.
    Now I'm not saying that stealth can't work. We see this mechanic in many other games (spy from tf2 for example) and it works well, because you can still survive and reach tight spots, since you're invisible.
    I say that a stealth based flanker, can't work in paladins.
    And here's the reasons why:

    1. MAPS ARE LIMITED

    Maps are way too restricted.
    They're so easy to learn, small and poor of alterative routes and spots.
    Flank routes are so small and easy to control, you can't abuse them to trick and confuse the enemy.
    Sometimes, you just need to shoot around, to block the flank route and force skye to change direction.

    1. HIDDEN IS SLOW

    Another downside that makes the situation worse. Once you've spotted skye, you won't have problems to track and finish her.
    When she goes invisible, she receives an insignificant amount of extra speed, that makes the ability pointless, since you can't use it to escape or reach spots quickly.
    The ability doesn't even heal you, so you're pretty much an easy kill while using it.
    I don't even mention illuminate... that cheap item makes every stealth ability useless.

    1. EASY DAMAGE IS TOO HIGH

    Skye is slow, maps are limited and easy spammable damage is high... you know what it means?
    That you can spam around burst damage (even worse if it's aoe) without even using a limited amount of your brain cells and hit skye.
    And with the damage being buffed so much, and her HP being so low, you can basically one tap her.

    1. ONCE YOU BREAK STEALTH, YOU'RE FUCKED.

    It would be useful if, instead of a cooldown, skye had a rechargable bar of stealth.
    So that if you break stealth, but you don't kill anyone, you can still use the remaining stealth to get out.
    Something like strix's stealth.

    1. SMOKE SCREEN

    In my opinion it should blind people again.
    You only use it to boost speed and be temporanealy invisible... a smoke screen is supposed to blind people instead.

    Tbh it's already a big step if evilmojo will improve maps, they're so bad.



  • I also forgot to mention reveals, that make skye completely useless



  • There is no doubt that Skye needs a rework. Her and Moji. Both have the worst kits among flankers. They have no way to deal damage at long distance. Now this would be fine, if they had a way to escape. Moji has poor mobility and Skye has NO mobility. This means they have to get in close, but don't have a way to escape. These are the champions that people think are OP by the way.

    Skye is actually easy to rework. Keep hidden as is, but give her new talents/cards to buff it. That way, champions whose name starts with an S can keep their invisibility. Another thing to change is smoke screen. Smoke screen should teleport her to where she threw it, like Kinessa's transporter, but a bit better. Then I would move on to the talents/cards.

    Talents

    • healer talent: get rid of it. It does not belong on a flanker. Why is a flanker getting a card to heal other allies? That makes no sense.
    • Optional Talents: Debilitate, nerf it to the same amount of damage, but in 2 seconds. More bursty, but not OP since she would have increased mobility. New Talent, hidden gives you 20% damage reduction after coming out for 3 seconds. New Talent, you have 2 consecutive uses of smoke screen.

    Cards

    • Hidden heals you for {25|25} per second.
    • Smoke Screen heals you for [75|75} on use.
    • Gain {4|4}% speed boost for 2 seconds after using smoke screen
    • Reduce the cool down of hidden by {1|1} second.

    That's all she needs. If she overperforms, then nerf accordingly while keeping her base kit and the idea of her talents the same.

    Moji needs a lot. Start with her mobility and hit box.



  • @HeartQueen
    If u didnt know the healing version of smoke & daggers is going to be reworked in most probably season 3. Jay Flare said this in 12th AoC meeting video. They may also buff it which is highly unlikely instead of reworking it. And now to your suggestions, most of them are fine but reworking both of her other talents just doesnt sit well with me. Preparation is the only talent that makes her work like a better flanker instead of a close range dmg dealer and i dont want it to go away. As long as it doesnt get reworked the changes are fine or else it might change the way she is played completely which i dont want happening as a skye main.



  • @HeartQueen said in The problems with skye:

    Moji.

    Why do people say this? Why do people think she needs a rework?

    Like, how's she any different to other flanks without vertical mobility? High close range damage, fast mobility option, short invulnerability button. That sounds like any flank to me. The only weird thing about her is her size, which can always be scaled down.

    Why in the world people jump into conclusion that no numerical changes can balance her?



  • @SNIper-poTAto said in The problems with skye:

    @HeartQueen
    If u didnt know the healing version of smoke & daggers is going to be reworked in most probably season 3. Jay Flare said this in 12th AoC meeting video. They may also buff it which is highly unlikely instead of reworking it. And now to your suggestions, most of them are fine but reworking both of her other talents just doesnt sit well with me. Preparation is the only talent that makes her work like a better flanker instead of a close range dmg dealer and i dont want it to go away. As long as it doesnt get reworked the changes are fine or else it might change the way she is played completely which i dont want happening as a skye main.

    I'm just suggesting a rework to smoke screen, her talents, and a few cards. It seems like a lot in a list, but it wouldn't change her too much, it would actually make her better. Her poison bolts are still the same (but debilitate would be nerfed to compensate for her added mobility), hidden would be the same, her weapon shots would be the same, and her ult would be the same. Only thing that would change is her smoke screen and the new talent to coincide with that change. Her cards won't change too much, they'll just give her more survivability, which she desperately needs.

    As for Preparation, I just don't like the idea of having to get kills or eliminations for a talent. Besides, my new balance would have the reworked Smoke Screen talent as her added mobility talent. Though I wouldn't mind too much if Preparation stayed. Really, changing her base kit would be so much of an improvement that I wouldn't even mind Preparation staying.

    @TTraw said in The problems with skye:

    @HeartQueen said in The problems with skye:

    Moji.

    Why do people say this? Why do people think she needs a rework?

    Like, how's she any different to other flanks without vertical mobility? High close range damage, fast mobility option, short invulnerability button. That sounds like any flank to me. The only weird thing about her is her size, which can always be scaled down.

    Why in the world people jump into conclusion that no numerical changes can balance her?

    Moji is completely ineffective at mid range. It's not that she has damage fall off, which most flanks do because they were made for short ranged combat, it's the fact that she can't even do small ticks of damage at mid-long range. Even Buck can deal damage at mid-long range, it's just not good damage.

    Moji's mobility is bad. Even Buck, who people complain isn't mobile enough for a flank, and Willo/Bomb King/Drogoz, who are damage dealers, have more mobility than Moji.

    Her Magic Barrier is the only good flank quality about her since it gives her the sustain that flanks are known for.



  • @HeartQueen said in The problems with skye:

    @SNIper-poTAto said in The problems with skye:

    @HeartQueen
    If u didnt know the healing version of smoke & daggers is going to be reworked in most probably season 3. Jay Flare said this in 12th AoC meeting video. They may also buff it which is highly unlikely instead of reworking it. And now to your suggestions, most of them are fine but reworking both of her other talents just doesnt sit well with me. Preparation is the only talent that makes her work like a better flanker instead of a close range dmg dealer and i dont want it to go away. As long as it doesnt get reworked the changes are fine or else it might change the way she is played completely which i dont want happening as a skye main.

    I'm just suggesting a rework to smoke screen, her talents, and a few cards. It seems like a lot in a list, but it wouldn't change her too much, it would actually make her better. Her poison bolts are still the same (but debilitate would be nerfed to compensate for her added mobility), hidden would be the same, her weapon shots would be the same, and her ult would be the same. Only thing that would change is her smoke screen and the new talent to coincide with that change. Her cards won't change too much, they'll just give her more survivability, which she desperately needs.

    As for Preparation, I just don't like the idea of having to get kills or eliminations for a talent. Besides, my new balance would have the reworked Smoke Screen talent as her added mobility talent. Though I wouldn't mind too much if Preparation stayed. Really, changing her base kit would be so much of an improvement that I wouldn't even mind Preparation staying.

    Looks like a good rework idea, but in my opinion it is better to let preparation and rework instead delibitate, so we don't completely get rid of the stealth playstyle.
    In this way tho, skye will still have an useless ability that can't be used well because of the limits I mentioned in my thread, something must happen.
    -50% more speed during hidden
    -Maps improvements

    @TTraw said in The problems with skye:

    @HeartQueen said in The problems with skye:

    Moji.

    Why do people say this? Why do people think she needs a rework?

    Like, how's she any different to other flanks without vertical mobility? High close range damage, fast mobility option, short invulnerability button. That sounds like any flank to me. The only weird thing about her is her size, which can always be scaled down.

    Why in the world people jump into conclusion that no numerical changes can balance her?

    Moji is completely ineffective at mid range. It's not that she has damage fall off, which most flanks do because they were made for short ranged combat, it's the fact that she can't even do small ticks of damage at mid-long range. Even Buck can deal damage at mid-long range, it's just not good damage.

    Moji's mobility is bad. Even Buck, who people complain isn't mobile enough for a flank, and Willo/Bomb King/Drogoz, who are damage dealers, have more mobility than Moji.

    Buck has pretty decent mobility with leg day 5, the problem is cooldown.
    Btw rework scamper, it's shitty, even tanks like raum have better movement.

    Her Magic Barrier is the only good flank quality about her since it gives her the sustain that flanks are known for.



  • @HeartQueen said in The problems with skye:

    Moji is completely ineffective at mid range. It's not that she has damage fall off, which most flanks do because they were made for short ranged combat,

    Moji's spray has 60 unit range. It's one of the longest effective ranges in the class.

    it's the fact that she can't even do small ticks of damage at mid-long range. Even Buck can deal damage at mid-long range, it's just not good damage.

    She literally has her spit with almost infinite range. It's not great damage but saying she can't do small ticks at range when she literally can throw small ticks of damage is false.

    Moji's mobility is bad. Even Buck, who people complain isn't mobile enough for a flank, and Willo/Bomb King/Drogoz, who are damage dealers, have more mobility than Moji.

    Have you ever bunny hoped with her scamper? It can add a lot of distance if done correctly. Suddenly her F doesn't feel as bad.

    Willo was balanced before they overbuffed her. They literally DOUBLED her F distance for 0 reasons. Of course such huge buff will make her mobility better than half of the cast. So when I see people complain that she gets her distance reduced next patch I get so upset.

    They're atraid of nerfing bk mobility befause they literally nerfed his ability to move from one side of map to another and nerfing it even more would cause huge backlash. Besides he is quite balanced so nerfing him doesn't make sense.

    I always said that Drogoz should be in flank category. His mobility is pretty much unmatched, and I have yet to see good drogoz players not flank wih him.

    Both Lex and Talus have less mobility than Moji and I don't see anyone complaining about those (outside of Talus on console). In fact, I think Talus is better candidate for rework than Moji and Skye ever were.

    Her Magic Barrier is the only good flank quality about her since it gives her the sustain that flanks are known for.

    I would say that she has more good flank qualities. He close range damage is highest in the game, and her insane sustain allows her to stay in backline for longer periods of time.

    Moji is conceptually fine. Reduce her hitbox, nerf damage and sustain to compensate. No reworks needed.


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