Anyone else disappointed with the balance changes?

  • How do they not realize they're going full circle with all those nerfs?? Wrecker/Caut were OP and deserved to be tuned down, but by nerfing shields they're just bringing it back to how it used to be, except now characters who didn't get damage nerfs will do more to shields than they did before, same thing apples to healing, the caut and healing nerfs counter eachother out. And I'm afraid characters like Grohk and Ying would get nerfed harder because they were untouched meaning their pick rates could go up and win rates with it, and we all know what Hirez does to characters with high win rates..

    Card and character balance is another thing they're messing up in a lot of places. I'm not saying some of the small buffs aren't good but the majority of the changes seems to be them nerfing something and adding the old value to cards, or just flat out nerfing things that wasn't OP in the first place, has anyone actually complained about Ash's base weapon damage?? And they add a "reduced healing effect" to burn monster despite removing caut and wrecker from talents a long time ago, (or maybe it was there the whole time and I didn't notice so feel free to correct me).

    Strix's rifle doesn't do headshot damage, really? Do they hate skilled players that much? Wasn't the UU/Crack shot nerfs enough for him? Couldn't they just nerf his rifle to hold less ammo or fire slower? Also looks like we'll be seeing that cancer Koga and his claw build more frequently again, yayy..

    There's a lot more that's wrong with these but I just nitpicked the worst ones in my opinion so I wouldn't end up writing a essay here, sorry if this is in the wrong place but atleast it'll have something in common with whoever's in charge of balance at Hirez...

  • They keep buffing OP champions while nerfing weak champions.

  • PC

    I'm half and half on them. Some were actually good, but some... Ugh.

    I'm PARTICULARLY disappointed with how they've essentially killed Io and Ash. 😠 Seriously, whoever thought they needed such massive nerfs for what essentially is no reason needs to get FIRED. Also, WHY NERF THE WEAKEST DAMAGE AND FLANK CHAMPIONS IN THE GAME EM? HELLO?

  • It's really true what you said about buffing op champions and nerfing weak ones! I can't believe Maeve is getting buffed. Completely ludicrous, she literally one shots half the roster and is definitely overpicked. This really makes me question launching the game just remembering that I will getting one-shotted by Maeves almost every match. If you're trying to make the game easier for less skilled players, that's alright, at least do it right. If she gets buffed after the PTS I'm seriously uninstalling the game. Btw did they remove ALL of strix headshots or was it just one of the talents? Idk I don't play strix.

  • PC

    I've updated my discord status to : "OB64 all over again"
    this should give you an idea about how I feel about next patch

    the f are they thinking

    Seris will get broken while furia will be useless, Io will still be op af since her healing wasn't nerfed much but caut is, and she'll just be able to heal nonstop now

    also I love how they are trying to camouflage furia's nerf by saying they are buffs lmao

    andro isn't getting buffed -.- maeve is getting buffed, logic
    ruckus is the new burst meta (like he needed it after we all saw what he can do in ppl...)
    strix remains broken af, cause his pistol isn't the only problem, and if they nerfed pistol dmg, they buffed innacuracy and ammo wtf

    at least they kinda buffed nessa
    most broken bugs are still here and hitboxes ain't changing (like really how is that ying exploit still possible for exemple) barik will surely become totally op with archi, we'll see plenty of damage jenos too
    nerfing raum who's already garbage :') buffing makoa lmao

    and the list goes on
    honestly, I couldn't be more disappointed in this, I thought they had learn from their mistakes but apparently not

    if all of this goes past pts I'm uninstalling to be honest
    they said they would fix most bugs, that this would be the best update ever, that there will be great balance changes, well yes but no
    are they ever listening to what the community is proposing, I can't count the many posts about game balance and ideas on how to buff or nerf
    and of course, the wreck nerf will make the game look like it's ow...

  • Balance changes are made to accomodate new maps, new challenges and new characters. Developers are not trying to make the game harder or easier for any player. They are doing their best to make the game fair for all of us. People will be upset, as noted in almost every discussion on this forum. Some will be pleased as noted here and there. And some will spam or repeat themselves over and over.

    As to changes in the game, I adapt and I conquer.

  • PC

    My first take on the patch notes. I didn't scrutinize everything.

    • The removal of 3p doesn't bother me as I don't use it and really it allows cheating. They should allow it in the spawn room though.
    • Bulldozer nerfed to hell. Wow.
    • Wrecker nerfed to hell. Tbh, Other than faced with an enemy Torvald I don't buy wrecker that often. I usually find other ways to deal with shields most of the time. You can blame Atlas Stasis Field for this.
    • Resilience - nerfed to hell.
    • Ash - WTF, nerfed to hell.
    • Atlas - He needs that dmg nerf.
    • Inara - Tremors change might be interesting.
    • Raum - dmg nerfed - Not sure he actually needs that.
    • Barik - a lot of new self sustain added. - Maybe too much.
    • Terminus - I like the buffs to Shatterfall.
    • Furia - Solar Blessing.. The slower beam speed will make it easier for allies to get into it but at the same time Furia will have to launch it sooner to get there unless she is close. It also makes it completely useless if used for defense. I think this should have been make the beam's base radius larger for allies instead.
    • Ying - no change to healing output where almost all the other supports got nerfed? This is VERY disturbing as LE Ying has a lot of healing.
    • Viktor - Cardio nerfed - finally.
    • Seris - I like the changes to Shadow Travel. On the fence about Soul Forge - is a nearby ally range increase needed?

    Edit: More

    • Each ranked split is now across 2 patches, or around 4 months. MUCH BETTER than 2 months.
    • All maps now have an equal chance to be played. I would have preferred my scheme I had posted a while back but at least they are admitting it was biased in some way.

  • PC

    @DaddyOoker said in Anyone else disappointed with the balance changes?:

    Seris - I like the changes to Shadow Travel. On the fence about Soul Forge - is a nearby ally range increase needed?

    Question I always ask to myself:

    Is it me or seris is OP?

  • @Buongiornooo, a company will adapt as needed, not just because we want something. Hi-Rez is here to not just make games, but to make money through those games. Their decisions will be based on our input, the number of people playing the game and cost-profit balance. And just because people may complain and rage here, it doesn't mean most active and current players are dissatisfied with the game. Most who join forums do so to complain. Most happy players, unfortunately, rarely consider joining.

    I understand your point, but I have have faith in the bigger picture. I have nothing more to add here.

  • PC

    @DambaKing said in Anyone else disappointed with the balance changes?:

    @DaddyOoker said in Anyone else disappointed with the balance changes?:

    Seris - I like the changes to Shadow Travel. On the fence about Soul Forge - is a nearby ally range increase needed?

    Question I always ask to myself:

    Is it me or seris is OP?

    I don't think Seris is currently OP. I do think she is easier to use for healing purposes than most of the others.

  • @Buongiornooo said in Anyone else disappointed with the balance changes?:

    @Conrad_Max mate, if we were talking about minor problems, like idk... a character being too easy or a talent being too weak then you would probably be right. In that case, only people on forums would flame and complain about that, cause it's true, people come here only to complain.
    But here we're talking about serious problems, who have been affecting the game for more than 1 year now.
    High burst combined with sustain nerfs (aka low ttk) is a problem at every elo, on every platform and in every map... and with all the critics from PRO PLAYERS, with all the time they got, they should have fixed that time ago.
    Instead they still don't get it, they still keep nerfing the wrong things , like movement, when the solution it's so easy,
    -NERF POPULAR HIGH BURST CHARACTERS like CASSIE, LIAN, STRIX (those 3 also have a lot more strenghts.. the burst it's what makes them broken, so a nerf wouldn't kill them)
    -INCREASE HP, SHIELD VALUES and survivability in general, including mobility (probably the most discussed topic in paladins).

    Mobility, ttk, maps , hitboxes and skill gap are the most discussed balancement problems... but hirez doesn't care

    The whole problem is that they want the game to be playable on console, which actually makes up the majority of the game's playerbase. Console players can't handle mobility, they can't handle complicated maps, so the game is being dumbed down and made very basic. The maps are very simple, a lot of burst is introduced, mobility being constantly lowered. They don't care about making a good game, they want to casualize it more and more and make it noob-friendly. Honestly, Paladins has the potential to be great, but it will only stay a POTENTIAL as long as they keep running their game according the needs of console players.

    Summarized, if they want a good game, they should listen to PC players. If they want higher and more secure income, they will listen to console players. Considering any company needs money, they'll probably do latter, and unfortunately it's hard to blame them for it.

  • Minor reworks and a lot of value tweaks.
    Bringing up my arguement that supporting PC controller systems on console would be healthy for balence changes and game quality of life when everyone is balenced around the same control system.

    Console controllers are fine, but inorder to play ranked and to get a healthy balencing meta, you have to make console players gravitate to using PC bindings.
    The controller settings have gotten better so that character with enough endurance and mobility such as rukus, grover and evie are somewhat playable due to TTK in the console environment in order to make up for the lack of PC contoller hit security vs hyper mobility.

    I just do not understand way there is not more love for PC binding support on console, as then console can play with PC without such hinderances.

  • I am personally biased with some changes since I can only play OP champions in non tank roles... E.G. Strix, Cassie, Maeve, Willo (kinda)... KEK

    But, I do think it is half and half.

    SOme of them good, some of them somewhat unnecessary, some of them okay, some of them really bad.

    Majorly speaking, I like the changes, even if I disagree (since my opinion is damn biased on Cassie and Strix) with some of them.

    I dislike things that were unnecessary, like Io nerf, Ash nerf, Maeve buff, but otherwise, they're okay...

  • @schachmaty As a console player who LOVES mobility I find your reasoning biased and offensive and I know I'm not the only one who would gladly face a KB Maeve over a controller Talus anyday of the week win or lose. Did they mention anywhere that they killed mobility solely because console players couldn't aim? Because if I remember correctly there were (and still are) plenty of PC players asking for mobility nerfs on Evie and such.

    Don't try to pin everything on us because of some "PC MASTER RACE" bs mate, not everyone that prefers a controller is some 9yo casual who plays for fun and instalocks Viktor because he shoots bullets which is the only thing our puny minds can grasp or whatever.

  • I agree and disagree with alot of the balancing. Overall I think it's a decent start to finally getting rid of burst meta.

    Caut/Wrecker and healing output have been ridiculous since forever. Healing early game is incredibly frustrating to play against with nearly all healers able to out heal any amount of damage from a single champion, but then late game healing practically doesnt exist, similar situation with shields/wrecker. This balancing brings the numbers in line so it's less op at start and more useful at end game.

    Strix, all his nerfs were needed to stop him being able to burst anyone thats not a tank at ANY range. He's been OP forever, it's about time. I say he needs more speed bonus in his stealth or something else buffed to counter balance because he looks a little too weak now.

    Although they've created new balance issues and left out alot of old ones, I think most are surface level that can be easily tweaked as they go along. But most serious issues were deep rooted in the Caut/wrecker/heal problem which I'm so glad is finally being addressed.

  • @Vaanfo I'm not a Strix main by any means though I enjoy picking him on certain maps to get quickscope top plays, but removing the headshot multiplier was absolutely unnecessary and will most certainly kill him atleast in ranked, reducing the extra damage would've been sufficient but no, they just flat out remove it, really hope they will be sensible enough to tweak some of these changes during PTS

  • I liked some changes and hated others.

    I like that Slug Shot increases the damage of Ash. I always thought that Ash's base damage should be 400, while Slug Shot was like 450 since it travels faster and further (so wouldn't it make sense that it did more damage?). Hate how they randomly nerfed her. She was always the most balanced frontline in my opinion, so I don't get why they nerfed her.

    They annoyed me by nerfing tinkering on Barik. It was what I always used against Khan and Fernando, and now it's shit. It's basically a weak zoning tool now. They literally could have just buffed Architectonics to increase damage and provide a 50% slow. Instead they nerfed tinkering.

    They essentially buffed Makoa. Though it actually amuses me. I can see the salty tears of the flank mains now (which is good because they are the reason supports are defenseless healbots).

    I'll do a separate comment for supports as a support main.

    Androxus's problem isn't fixed. His netherstep's cooldown is just too long for his only mobility move. Evie can get away with soar being on a 10 second cooldown because she has blink. Androxus doesn't have that. Netherstep needs a base cooldown of 6 seconds.

    Buck didn't get his issues fixed. He has less burst damage with ensnare. His mobility is still bad. All they had to do was give him bounce house with 2 heroic leaps and reduce the cooldown of heroic leap to 8 seconds.

    Evie didn't need to increase her health. She has that low health pool to compensate for her mobility. She really just needed extra soar speed in her base kit and she's good.

    Maeve didn't need a buff. She's already best flank. Buck gets a nerf because he dominates noobs, yet Maeve dominates even pro players and gets a buff. WTF? Z1unknown voice: Hi-Rez?!

    Moji is still a support champion that's not a support champion. 2 talents dedicated to healing her allies, yet they don't want to make this a support champion... Nerf her consistent burst, reduce her hitbox, buff her scamper distance, and get rid of her support talents. Why does a flank need to heal their teammates?

    Skye is now even more of a support. Community: Can you give Skye a movement ability to make her like a flank? Just change one of the invisible abilities into a movement ability. Especially since half of her kit relies on invisibility, which is made obsolete by illuminate. Hi-Rez: What if we made her more like a support and nerfed illuminate? Genius! So now you have a character that's still a joke at higher ranks, but even MORE oppressive at lower ranks. Nothing has changed!

    Bomb King is the worst buff ever. Claim to balance around winrates, but they buff a champion with one of the highest winrates. Claim that Imani can't have a 2.5 second stun, but they buff Bomb King to potentially give him a 2.5 second stun.

    Imani is tragic. Imagine thinking that a 1.5 second root on a champion with a 43% winrate is oppressive, but a champion with over a 50% winrate geets a 2.5 second stun. Who is in charge of balancing?

    Lian is in a tough spot for balancing. Her only utility is raw and bursty damage. Nerf that and she's useless. They could nerf her damage and compensate with utility though. The best thing to do would be to reduce her presence to 700 damage. Have Valor apply a knockback. Get rid of Grace's damage altogether. Put precision in her base kit to compensate for the reduced burst.

    Strix didn't need a severe nerf. He just needed to be like Grover. Have his damage to 1,000 bodyshots and 1,500 headshots at close range, and then scale up to 1,200 body shots and 1,800 headshots at long range. Nerf UU to give only 200% increased flare damage. Then you'll have a balanced champion for the most part. Weaker at short range, and encourages a mid-long range playstyle with him.

    Willo got her damage nerfed too hard. Her damage wasn't even her main issue, it was her deadzone. All they had to do was nerf blastflower to scale up to 700 instead of 800. Nerf the value of deadzone from 100% reduced healing to 80% reduced healing, and have it countered by rejuvenate and cards/talents. Then Willo would be balanced.

  • Supports get their own comment. This is a big issue. Hi-Rez keeps burst damage, but nerfs the sustain. Granted, they did nerf Cassie, Tyra, and Willo so that's a start. However Bomb King, Drogoz, Vivian, and Lian are still bursty. Less healing from supports, less sustain from tanks, and yet most damage remains the same. Also, support across the board didn't need to be nerfed. Some supports were overpowered and could bring large healing numbers (Jenos, Seris, and Ying). Yet some are bad and need a buff to healing (Pip and Grohk).

    Furia's Cherish is now useless. Solar Blessing is the mandatory support talent. GG Hi-Rez. You now essentially have a 4 second cooldown on a 1,400-1,750 heal that only targets one person. It was fine because because she could have a max cooldown of 1.9 seconds with the hand heal card maxed out and Chronos maxed out, and she could heal for 1,500-1,875. But they buffed her damage, even though her damage was already good.

    Grohk just needs shock pulse to heal with Spirit's Domain, Totemic Ward to put down 2 totems at once, and for shock pulse to have a slow in his base kit (that would leave with Maelstrom of course).

    Grover didn't need a healing nerf. His healing was fine as is. A burst 750 is not good, even for this patch.

    Io's nerf is because of flank mains whining. Hope you guys are proud. Her escape, which was already bad, gets a higher cooldown. I always felt that Luna's stun should be reduced to 12 seconds, and it got increased to 18 seconds. WTF? Can't have supports defending themselves apparently.

    Wekono's Curse needed to be replaced with a heal talent, but why not put it in his base kit? That way he'll have a long ranged attack.

    Ying's base healing sucks butt, but life exchange is going to be op during this patch. Every other support had their healing reduced, yet life exchange can still burst for 800 every 2.5 seconds, on top of the illusion's regular healing.

  • Soo current thoughts on the state of Terminus?

    Actual value to some cards in terminus loadout instead of undervalued trash.
    Pity it still feels like it is missing alot in some areas.
    Anyway, so now they are giving me perfect ability rotation with shatterfall and cards now...?
    Not such a dire need for chronos... oook... much better.
    Rocky will feel less like a sitting duck and more of a wondering pocket nuke who can move and keep denying damage a bit longer now.
    He still will get chipped into oblivion, so no changes there then.

    Fuck as much as I hate how much healing terminus needs half the time when playing against range.
    That ability rotation will be pretty fluid compared to before... and better power siphon recharge buffs sounds pretty heavy for going that little bit harder
    I still think Rocky is a half assed tank who needs a touch more momentary self regeneration over time in places as he is too reliant on eating and throwing it back, landing hits and farming ult... like a weak passive regeneration for each charge you have active or something, something subtle for staying power but there overall, like it follows with speed, but for weak sustain from witholding power instead of burst by throwing it, just something similar to Barik First Aid Station turret passive regeneration value would be ample.
    In addition, his legendaries aside from crush could be more game altering, but fuck knows how, as it stands not they are pretty meh... even crush could do with a damage amp on first hit after or amping the damage of shatterfal marginally, the rest are just toying with values that could be in base kit.

    Shame about the ult though, not really worth the wait now... but whatever...
    I would like to see some talent that can activate the delyed explosion while alive for half the damage and reduced ult charge use or momentary DR while charging... just something to build on it at the expense of having the resurrect always up.
    Idk, as he stands right now, he is fairly easy to ignore and fight around unless you are some staying power brawler, he can be hard to kill when doing his job and the team is sustaining him... I feel he just needs some more sustain independant of enemy and ally resources.

  • As an Andy player I'm sad about the Termi ult nerf, now I can't reversal it for 3000 damage in his face lol

  • @Buongiornooo said in Anyone else disappointed with the balance changes?:

    I absolutely agree with you, with healing being reduced, now the problem is even bigger.
    Supports will now have to focus 24/7 on healing, and this will make them more "healbot" than what they already were.
    All of this because the burst damage is still too high! Tanks have now weaker shields, they can't be aggro anymore (this is great), who is going to stop overpowered champions with high damage now?? Vivian, has still has that braindead HOLD M1 talent... lian , for some reasons is considered balanced when she only has to press some buttons and aim presence to delete someone... cassie, whose mobility keeps getting nerfed, like it is the problem right? Dodge roll OP... yeah... atleast they toned down big game a little. Her damage needs to go from 680 to 650 like it used to be, this would be a good start... and what about moji, bombking crazy aoe, strix bodyshot cancer, delibitate, dredge?
    If all this burst damage won't be toned down, the situation will be worse. Everyone, even tanks now, will keep dying from those characters.

    Burst damage actually wouldn't be so bad if we had enough sustain to counter it, and enough mobility to get away. Seris was fine, Io was fine, and Furia was fine.

    Pip: just needed mischief put in his cards, which this patch solves. That way he can provide those burst Mega Potion heals more often to counter the burst damage.

    Jenos: needed celestial touch in his cards. Like Astral Mark heals an ally for an additional {2%|2%} upfront. That way a person with 2,000 heal can get an upfront burst of 500 at max, and a person with 4,000 heal could get an upfront burst of 700 health.

    Mal'Damba: just needed to bring back Ripened Gourd, which this patch solved, and to put Wekono's Curse in his base kit with nerfed damage (560-->400 over 2 seconds).

    Grover: just needed a lower cooldown from 10s-->8s, but nerf his Perennial card to {.4|.4}s cooldown.

    Grohk: just needed to deploy 2 totems with Totemic Ward, and buff the health of it to 3,000.

    Ying: needed a Resonance buff and base healing buff. Her illusions healing is more frequent from every 1.6s-->1s. Expired/Destroyed illusions now provide a 500 burst damage AND 500 burst healing each.

    Flanks just needed more mobility to get away, and better sustain to have a chance at surviving the burst. Flanks would be a bit different from tanks because they wouldn't have a healer and their sustain would only last for about 2-4 seconds, so they would need mobility to quickly get out if it's too much, and they also have enough burst to help them out trade damage champions. That would make the game much more balanced. You have burst damage champions, but you also have a way to counter them with more sustain (tanks), burst healing (support), and mobility/self sustain (flanks). I think they're hesitating because certain things were problematic in the past like mobility and self sustain meta, but they would be great here. You have a bunch of cc to counter the mobility of flanks along with bursters like Bomb King/Lian/Cassie to burst flanks down quickly. Self Sustain was bad back then, but now you have burst damage to counter it.

    Ikr, like her escape was the problem, imagine being able to defend yourself now lol.
    Anyway , the stun is still busted af because it passes through every barrier, even andro reversal and you don't need to aim that. (Rip everyone trying to fly around as evie)
    This needs a fix

    Io's stun was balanced by the long cooldown that can't be brought down, even with Chronos, and the fact that bulldozer gets rid of it for 18 more seconds. It didn't need a nerf. Also, flanks, who it SHOULD be aimed it for the most part, should have just had enough mobility to get away from it. The fox stops after 100 units. If you buff flanks to potentially get away fast enough, it wouldn't be much of a problem. It's a win for both because the flank still got away, while Luna prevented her buddy Io from getting dived. It's supposed to stop dives. This nerf just seems like a bunch of Maeve and Evie players were whining because they tried to dive an Io player, and got properly dealt with.

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