Some balance issues


  • Moderator

    @DaddyOoker said in Some balance issues:

    Strix: Yeah, small nerf on rifle damage. Pistol has ridiculous range. No scope is total BS in any game.
    What about Imani? Seems she has been destroyed. She went from constant ban to almost never picked.

    Strix just needs a complete rework imo. No champion in the game should be able to 2 shot half the cast. It's not fun to play against either.

    My rework would be, as I've said before, to make it so his rifle does less damage the closer you are to an enemy Much the same as Grover. This would make him good over being a Sniper as intended, but this quickscope to pistol flare 2 shot kill fiasco? That'd be done and dusted. I propose the damage over distance scale from 700 - 1200.

    As for Imani, I think everyone just suddenly learned that she's actually easy to counter, and the dragon isn't really a big deal.


  • PC

    @CMS said in Some balance issues:

    @DaddyOoker said in Some balance issues:

    Strix: Yeah, small nerf on rifle damage. Pistol has ridiculous range. No scope is total BS in any game.
    What about Imani? Seems she has been destroyed. She went from constant ban to almost never picked.

    Strix just needs a complete rework imo. No champion in the game should be able to 2 shot half the cast. It's not fun to play against either.

    My rework would be, as I've said before, to make it so his rifle does less damage the closer you are to an enemy Much the same as Grover. This would make him good over being a Sniper as intended, but this quickscope to pistol flare 2 shot kill fiasco? That'd be done and dusted. I propose the damage over distance scale from 700 - 1200.

    As for Imani, I think everyone just suddenly learned that she's actually easy to counter, and the dragon isn't really a big deal.

    A sniper is supposed to be able to do large damage over long distance. Why not make it a flat 980? Factoring in L1 shield it would take more than 2 shots to kill anything at full health. On this note, Kinessa's rifle damage should also be nerfed to match.

    Imani: They nerfed the dragon hard - too hard. Also nerfed Frost Bomb. Some sort of buff is needed to bring her back.


  • PC

    @DaddyOoker
    ah yeah imani got nerfed a bit too hard
    nessa needs time to charge tho, she should have higher damage than strix at full charge since she can't quick scope and has more trouble at short range

    tyra's mark is a up to 14second reveal for the team, with hunting party, it has 2 charges and dmg buff 25%, it's total bullshit

    for the hook I meant that a koa can drag your through walls and such if he turns correctly, and even if it's hard being hooked at max range feels like wtf how did that even happens, and since it usually means instant death...

    jenos is best support right now just because of his dmg buff, it allows cassie among other to burst way more than it should be allowed (for cassie it brings back the old one shot combo that was nerfed several times, just an exemple among others)

    what I hate about luna is that she can't miss and she is a free stun every 15sec, it's nearly impossible to flank a good Io who stays near luna

    I think maybe strix damage should work a bit like eminence, increasing over distance


  • PC

    @TangAce

    Nessa: OK, but some of us are saying to remove the quick scope BS. I'm just saying if Strix gets damage nerf then Kinessa should also get a reduction of some sort.

    Tyra: Yeah, I agreed with that and I wouldn't even notice if that talent was gone. I don't agree with your Tyra can do nothing on her own comment. https://paladins.guru/match/861171447 - look what I had to deal with - flank Tyra is a thing - yeah.

    Makoa: Never saw that thru the walls thing.

    Jenos: Yeah he is picked with that in mind. I'm just unlucky with them. There is a 75% chance I will get one that sucks, throws, or has short range marks. You name it, they find a way to F it up.

    IO: Grover has a free cripple every 7 seconds - not as bad as a stun though. With Luna, in the heat of a battle you can't always control who will be stunned. I think it's too soon to say it's a problem.

    Strix: Interesting idea - same as what CMS said. Still without a damage nerf the 2 shot would still exist.


  • Moderator

    @DaddyOoker I don't think she'd need a nerf to compensate for Strix, since it's a lot harder for Kinessa to zoom in, charge, aim then shoot, instead of in that time, Strix getting two chances to hit the shots. Only thing for Kinessa I can think of to compensate is to perhaps rework Headhunter into something else.



  • @Crash-Override said in Some balance issues:

    @Driggydrug

    I don't know why are you bringing Atlas and Makoa into this. I was talking about Khan specifically, and his damage is probably his least oppressive ability. He has an On-demand 1k heal + damage immunity, a braindead easy stun that directly soft- or hard counters several other champions abilities and ultimates, and an ultimate that's basically just a button to turn any fight into a 4v5 without any higher thinking needed, yet you're concerned about his fucking damage output of all things?

    Calm down, I'm complaining about his dps because he's a tank, not a damage dealer.
    With self heal + immunity + ez grab + OP ultimate he doesn't need high dps. Right now khan is basically a dmg dealer with infinite sustain, it needs a dps nerf to make him as fair as some other tanks (and the same thing goes for atlas and koa).
    I don't care about the other aspects because he's a tank, he needs to be tanky... nerfing khan's sustain, HP, grab etc will turn him into an hitscan damager like the viktor or tyra.

    The ability to poke damage is literally the main reason why Evie and Maeve are meta, and Lex is seeming to rise into relevance. Making flanks relevant at their originally intended purpose would require a total overhaul of several champions and a revert on the projectile speed buff.

    The fact that some flankers like meave and evie are meta doesn't mean that all the others should be like them, in this way you completely replace the flank class with long range damagers (and we're already really close to it).
    And merging flankers with damagers is not what hirez wants and it's not going to happen.
    Devs wanted to make 4 classes with different roles, flanker's job is get close with mobility and fight at close range.
    And reverting projectiles means making them slow and hard to hit again and this doesn't help to counter high mobility characters lol.
    It's the opposite thing, you make projectiles fast and easy to hit so that they can counter fast characters. And rn projectiles are very fast , hitboxes are huge, CC skills, hitacan characters ,reveals and even autoaim exist ... with all theese counters high mobility would be much more fair than 2 years ago.
    That's why people ask for mobility buffs and higher ttk.

    Flanks have literally never been balanced as a whole during the game's existence and i'm honestly just about ready to merge damages and flanks into a single role because Hi-Rez is clearly 100% unable to keep them in check by any meaning of the word.

    Mobility and close range power = anyone below plat can't deal and forums are filled with complaining
    No mobility and mid-long range power = anyone good enough to take advantage of the mobility complains

    No mobility and mid-long range power= boring, stupid and NOT-COMPETITIVE gameplay that fills paladins with braindead turrets where the one that starts holding LMB wins.
    High mobility + close range is a concept that belongs only to 1 class , the flanker one, not the entire game. Flankers were created to get close and kill the enemy damager, not to be damage dealers. Giving them poke won't solve the problem, giving them more mobility and less burst will make then fair and playable again.
    And if you think that low elo players will complain about high mobility you're wrong.
    Mobility right now is very easy to counter, there are many mechanics that help to kill mobile characters, low elo will just have to learn them and improve their aim.
    It doesn't take a lot of time, expecially if hirez will improve the tutorial.

    and no, Maeve doesn't need a nerf on street justice, it's already a fucking throwpick

    Street justice needs a nerf REWORK because it's braindead, easy and flankers aren't supposed to melt tanks. You use the same reasoning of hirez, when something is not viable you buff it but then you end up causing complains because people don't want a balancement based on winrate, pikcrate, banrate etc.
    Characters , talents and cards should be balanced by checking if they're
    -fun to play
    -not too frustrating to deal with
    -not braindead
    -well designed
    -not easy to play but neither too hard.

    Winrate, pickrate etc etc don't mean anything.

    You can disagree as much as you want, but most of what I said are facts (with which even professional players like z1, mutu and bugzy agree because I asked questions and saw their answers) not personal opinions. I'm sorry but with your ideas you end up creating a slow and boring game based only on "DAMAGE".



  • @Driggydrug

    And merging flankers with damagers is not what hirez wants and it's not going to happen.

    Devs wanted to make 4 classes with different roles, flanker's job is get close with mobility and fight at close range

    Flankers were created to get close and kill the enemy damager, not to be damage dealers. Giving them poke won't solve the problem, giving them more mobility and less burst will make then fair and playable again.

    Is this something they have explicitly stated at any point recently? What they had in mind for champion roles when the game development first started has totally shifted along the way, and based on the way they handle balance it's clear that they don't like the way the "old flank playstyle" works in the game right now. Sure, this is what flanks were intended for originally, but i highly doubt that this is "what they want."

    And if you think that low elo players will complain about high mobility you're wrong.

    Mobility right now is very easy to counter, there are many mechanics that help to kill mobile characters, low elo will just have to learn them and improve their aim.

    Them being too hard to deal with for low elo/console is a huge part of why they've been dumbed down so much. Literally the reason for several things (including but not limited to: Toot nerf, Koga's nerfs, Maeve's nerfs, Skye's nerfs) is that they were constantly being bitched about by low elo/console players on reddit and the forums. It's not a secret that Hi-rez likes (or atleast liked to) to pander to the vocal minority.

    Street justice needs a nerf REWORK because it's braindead, easy and flankers aren't supposed to melt tanks. You use the same reasoning of hirez, when something is not viable you buff it but then you end up causing complains because people don't want a balancement based on winrate, pikcrate, banrate etc.

    Rework ≠ nerf. I agree that SJ is boring to play and somewhat poorly designed, and that a rework is in order. However, you were specifically talking about a nerf, not a rework. There's a big difference between those.

    You can disagree as much as you want, but most of what I said are facts

    No, they aren't facts. What you said is for a large part either your own, subjective opinon and/or assumptions of what Hi-Rez wants.

    (with which even professional players like z1, mutu and bugzy agree because I asked questions and saw their answers)

    It'd be a lot easier to believe this if i could see their answers too.



  • I repeat , mobility back in the day was way harder to counter than now, that's why it was nerfed to the ground.
    Not everything was nerfed propely, some talents were absoultely fine but anyways... adding mobility back won't cause any troubles since the game is now muuch easier.
    Projectiles are fast, there are a lot of CC skills like stuns, cripples, silence, disarme, knockback that help to take down a mobile character, there are reveals, there are even stupid cheap autoaim abilties (free damage that you can deal on flying characters), hitboxes are always big and many new characters like zhin or imani are really easy in terms of "landing shots".
    If you keep bad mobility and low timetokill you make the game boring, unbalanced and frustrating, that's why so many people rn complain about flankers, healbots, OP burst and off tanks. All theese problems were born with HP nerfs, mobility nerfs and dmg buffs.
    Paladins has a lot of mechanics that can cause a very bad gameplay if not balanced well.
    Hirez wanted to turn paladins into an easy, casual game filled with skins but they forgot that the game has classes, cards, talents, many other mechanics that need to be balanced.
    Causal or not paladins is not made for low ttk, stupid burst combos, slow flankers, healbots etc, they don't belong to it.
    Devs wanted to make 4 classes, not 3, if they didn't like the old flank concept they would deleted and replaced already the flank class with damage dealers by giving them more range. But they still don't do it, they still hear feedbacks and complains... Flankers have to be mobile if they want to be flankers, no mobility = no flanking potential.
    There are some flankers like skye and moji that suck only because they're rly slow, they're just damage dealers. Guess what?? Mobility, range and sustain is what make the difference between a damager and a flanker.
    Like it or not the old flank concept is needed to keep 4 classes in this game 😛

    Annd... no, stop.
    I'm done, I'm tired of repeating always the same things, a discussion under this thread won't help hirez to decide what to do.
    If you want more infos watch my thread "lets talk about mobility and ttk in paladins" , check posts on reddit, ask to pro players ( I asked them on stream , they usually answer)
    But now the dicussion ends here, I only waste my time , I can't change your mind mate 😕



  • @CMS Do you have anything to say about Strix, cause i feel like his pistol is way too strong. I am a Maeve main and i litealy get melted by this pistol wich is because i cant do damage faster that he can with his pistol (even when i am hitting all of my shots). I get that i deserve to die when he hits the quickscope and then deletes the rest of my health with the pistol, but when he just pulls out the pistol and emptys a mag into me, that is way too strong.

    Suggestion for solution: fix easy anti cheat so no macros/mouse assist are usable, because these thing make the pistol . fire rate as high as viktors assault rifle and also reduce pistol damage down to 150 or 110.

    Excuse my bad english and the reason why i am requesting a nerf is because i have been going up against several strix players no matter how good or bad their aim was the pistol would save them from me or ally flankers no matter what.
    We were only able to kill him when he was low health or 2 flanker were going for him.

    I hope for a reply 😉



  • Bring back Aegis 8 sec CD, now that Scorch has also been nerfed Nando has nothing on him.



  • Nerf zhin projectiles! They should nerf this braindead donkey character projectile size as well as damage and also remove one of its invincibility. You should watch its gameplay on Apknite. Characters were very easy to play should also have a downside and not make to the top tier.



  • @Gao-Shun said in Some balance issues:

    Bring back Aegis 8 sec CD, now that Scorch has also been nerfed Nando has nothing on him.

    Me happy... Nando buff is exactly like this. With Scorch



  • @TangAce said in Some balance issues:

    First thing is damage bonuses
    they need to be reworked into something else (jenos torv and tyra)

    Fully agree!

    Grover is weak right now

    Disagree. Grover is not weak. Vex30 puts him on place 2 after Jenos (on some maps even as top tier). Good heal, good self-heal, good damage, good movability, cripple, 30% damage reduction, speed buff. He has a lot to offer.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0
    grover isn't weak, his healing is just not efficient, he will show big numbers but what's the point if you gotta wait out of combat while you are healed lol



  • @TangAce said in Some balance issues:

    @M3RC3N4RI0
    grover isn't weak, his healing is just not efficient, he will show big numbers but what's the point if you gotta wait out of combat while you are healed lol

    The tanks maybe have to play more defensive but therefor the dps champs can play more aggressive due to constant healing. I don't think this is necessarily less effective.



  • Koji needs to be reworked

    any character that does a continuous form of damage eg flames/lasers should be reduced in damage or at least take time to build up dps damage, why? because aiming is easier

    i can't kill the b@stard when i'm example ying, unless his at a health level where sneezing can kill koji, his impossible to kill, he just goes invincible and heals then goes at you to finish the fight that you're winning. EVEN if his not healing going invincible is b.s

    EXAMPLE! even when i'm at hp advantage he still wins despite landing ALL shots, he just goes invincible then pushes all abilities into damage, right click does continuous damage that doesn't run out of ammo, then when you add in left click it amplifies it to 800-1000 damage, dafaq?? then his ult is an insta kill.....seriously?

    now i'm not gonna be one of those whiners and say "duh X hero is OP" but balance koji out, maybe give koji limited ammo for both kojis left/right click, thats not unfair. Why should i be winning and i can't finish him off just because he never runs out of ammo?



  • Grover is an area deathball support and requires team compitance to truely shine...
    As long as your team is active in slaying your foes, grover gets heaps of pump healing to farm ult...
    Tanks don't really need healing as much as most people think... they just need to be topped up...
    Grover only really works when your tanks are good at mitigating the enemy damage for the team and not eating all and chewing throuh resources allowing the rest of the team to secure kills with tank assistance...
    Thus Grover can farm ults with assist team up allied kills for the big burst heal that also is hugely assisted by tank play defence moves.
    Honestly for me...
    Grovers cripple duration being cut in half was pretty hard...
    It needs some compensation for it...
    Grover is a tad lacking in the offence area now...
    With damage scaleing not effecting deployables and grover damage nerfs, Grover has little impact vs deployables and deployable shields.


  • PC

    @U1222201596 said in Some balance issues:

    Koji needs to be reworked

    any character that does a continuous form of damage eg flames/lasers should be reduced in damage or at least take time to build up dps damage, why? because aiming is easier

    i can't kill the b@stard when i'm example ying, unless his at a health level where sneezing can kill koji, his impossible to kill, he just goes invincible and heals then goes at you to finish the fight that you're winning. EVEN if his not healing going invincible is b.s

    EXAMPLE! even when i'm at hp advantage he still wins despite landing ALL shots, he just goes invincible then pushes all abilities into damage, right click does continuous damage that doesn't run out of ammo, then when you add in left click it amplifies it to 800-1000 damage, dafaq?? then his ult is an insta kill.....seriously?

    now i'm not gonna be one of those whiners and say "duh X hero is OP" but balance koji out, maybe give koji limited ammo for both kojis left/right click, thats not unfair. Why should i be winning and i can't finish him off just because he never runs out of ammo?

    You mean Moji? 🙂
    I agree MOji's DPS is high. Ying you can dim link away - let someone else kill it. If your dim link is on CD then RUN.



  • Moji is a joke right...!?
    The psudo singe target dps is a nightmare to fight... cheap to play, cheap to kill people with...its like they took the concept of scorch fernando and made it single target area damage focused.

    The magic mark dynamic in its current state is janky, the trade off is damage is way too high and consistant damage to be fair in a trade...
    Fire a projectile at Moji for her to press a button and gain the potential to do 1k damage while being able to body block an ally....ok...
    On top of a really fast charge time for max marks...
    With infinte ammo, easy to confirm spray, no movement speed hinderance while firing... how is it allowed to get additional burst like that...
    How does it not have any ammo reserves to worry about, even ferns flame lance has some reserves considering how near infinate firepower it is...
    Her ult is garbage even for a flank.... they could do anything else... but it came out this way... half baked....



  • They never really managed to balance Moji. A pedestrian flank with a giant hitbox might be bad design.


Log in to reply