New off healer Khan



  • Hi!
    I just have a new idea about a card rework for make Khan possible to be also an off healer (not as OP as Skye!). He would still remain frontliner, so no serious brainstorm is here.
    I suggest to rework Hold The Line!: Battle Shout heals and additional {180|180} health for the allies.
    I think it's current bonus is under average. This new could be viable and also something what changes his style 🙂



  • AGREE (8 char limit)


  • PC

    I think it needs to be a talent and the card just be an extra to build with the talent (like skye smoke cards). To build ally healing on something thats not a support the champ has to sacrifice something just like skye and moji do


  • PC

    @ShogunPukin said in New off healer Khan:

    I think it needs to be a talent and the card just be an extra to build with the talent (like skye smoke cards). To build ally healing on something thats not a support the champ has to sacrifice something just like skye and moji do

    Skye doesn't really have to sacrifice all that much, if really anything (aside from tank shred from Debilitate, but that's not really meta anyways because OTs aren't in a good spot), though... She just gets a lot of healing for free, while still having more than enough damage along with it to pretty much be a damage support that outheals main supports by her very existence.

    Nonetheless, I do think it would be better as a talent... Like give it something like 40% increased healing and 20% DR for 2 seconds to those it affects or something like that (numbers could of course be adjusted). That way it wouldn't be a straight healing talent, and it would serve as an increase to Khan's own sustain as well.



  • No. If he gets that as a card, people will max that and battle shout out. He'll heal for 1900 every 7.7 seconds with max battle shout, max hold the line, and chronos 3. And that's without his eliminations card. Absolutely not!

    The best thing I can think of is to replace Lian's Shield with something related to battle shout heals for 50% more and provides allies 50% damage reduction for 1 second, but the cooldown is increased to 16 seconds. That's the only thing I can think of that wouldn't make him too busted. Even then, there are better ideas for talents that can replace Lian's Shield. Besides, Khan shouldn't be a pseudo support like I said. He works best as a bruiser and flank/backline bully.

    @Dusklicious said in New off healer Khan:

    @ShogunPukin said in New off healer Khan:

    I think it needs to be a talent and the card just be an extra to build with the talent (like skye smoke cards). To build ally healing on something thats not a support the champ has to sacrifice something just like skye and moji do

    Skye doesn't really have to sacrifice all that much, if really anything (aside from tank shred from Debilitate, but that's not really meta anyways because OTs aren't in a good spot), though... She just gets a lot of healing for free, while still having more than enough damage along with it to pretty much be a damage support that outheals main supports by her very existence.

    Nonetheless, I do think it would be better as a talent... Like give it something like 40% increased healing and 20% DR for 2 seconds to those it affects or something like that (numbers could of course be adjusted). That way it wouldn't be a straight healing talent, and it would serve as an increase to Khan's own sustain as well.

    That's another thing. It shows the sad state of supports when people are brainstorming unique healing and support utility ideas for non-supports. Instead of trying to buff supports and give them more utility, they would rather make flanks and off tanks supports.



  • Look... tanks are tanks... not off healers... say buck recovery should heal allies... its not good.
    You can have a tanky recovery station... just not in this role.
    However.... I agree that his shout needs a team synergy talent thats worthwhile.
    But not healing... supports are recovery engines....
    Tanks are standing power.

    Battleshout is pretty mediocure nowdays.
    The 4s CC immunity was twisted... however, I love cc immunity, it hurt that they did not balence it smoothly... just removed it.
    I just want an area CC cleanse for allies in range, allies gaining 1s antiCC on activation, to give his allies the same sort of standing power khan has with his shout immortality.
    This would deflect the koa hook and cc ults as long as allies were in a pocket, this would be a better dynamic to endurance pocket vs cc rather then the current shout dynamics.



  • @AYYDIMITRI Khan can heal allies by default. Buck can not. It was a bad example.
    As I wrote:

    @KicsitCsicska said in New off healer Khan:

    He would still remain frontliner



  • @KicsitCsicska

    Ha, to only focus on that, you misunderstood me entirely ...
    Lets get real...

    By trying to enforce khan as a primary healer / recovery engine...
    You will just destroy the identity of the champion.
    Khan is a roaming foothold on the battlefield.
    Not a full heal station to allow other players a full recovery.
    As soon as you make it too strong for allies to receive healing, why bother with a support, if your teams aggro can reset your CD, or keep the enemy dead.

    Just like turning buck into an area healer, its not too far off possible, just would shift what he means and weight on the battlefield, and in my eyes enforce a cancer healing meta.
    I could say the same turning skye into a healer, or giving moji healer abilites... is like saying barik turrets should heal allies or the koa bubble I want to heal all allies inside, but in all fairness... just have a bit more creativity to when it comes to game design to know that big powerful raw numbers are problemattic... Thus THE ENTIRE OVERHAUL OF THE HEALING AND SHIELDING VALUE SYSTEM.
    To just throw additional healing in there without considering what mechanics it could lead to....
    Making him into a cluster power healer... with the caut nerf...
    A barrier tank like barik or fernando would be very strong to pocket with this...

    What I was trying to get at aside from the healing numbers.
    There are other dynamics in play that can provide alternate supportive benefits other then forcing me to buy caut to counter large area healing with a singe target weapon.



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in New off healer Khan:

    By trying to enforce khan as a primary healer

    First: I don't enforce. I offer a card. You don't have to use this card. It is an option.
    Second: Not piramy healer. I wrote in the title: off-healer.

    You are debting with statements nobody said.



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in New off healer Khan:

    Look... tanks are tanks... not off healers... say buck recovery should heal allies... its not good.
    You can have a tanky recovery station... just not in this role.
    However.... I agree that his shout needs a team synergy talent thats worthwhile.
    But not healing... supports are recovery engines....
    Tanks are standing power.

    Battleshout is pretty mediocure nowdays.
    The 4s CC immunity was twisted... however, I love cc immunity, it hurt that they did not balence it smoothly... just removed it.
    I just want an area CC cleanse for allies in range, allies gaining 1s antiCC on activation, to give his allies the same sort of standing power khan has with his shout immortality.
    This would deflect the koa hook and cc ults as long as allies were in a pocket, this would be a better dynamic to endurance pocket vs cc rather then the current shout dynamics.

    No cc immunity for Khan. This is the same problem with Makoa actually. Supports were the best counters for off tanks because of their cc. If you give them cc immunity, they'll dominate the meta even harder. They were already dominate because people weakened supports, then wonder why off tanks, who are countered by supports, are dominating.

    @KicsitCsicska said in New off healer Khan:

    @AYYDIMITRI said in New off healer Khan:

    By trying to enforce khan as a primary healer

    First: I don't enforce. I offer a card. You don't have to use this card. It is an option.
    Second: Not piramy healer. I wrote in the title: off-healer.

    You are debting with statements nobody said.

    People will play him like a healer though. With battle shout 5, hold the line 5, and chronos 3, he can heal for 1900 burst every 7.7 seconds. That is broken on a non support. Like he said, the best optional thing would be to offer damage reduction or damage immunity for 1 second, and an increase in healing, but also increase the cooldown so it isn't spammed as often. They would have to nerf the eliminations card as well, from {8|8}% to {6|6}% to stop the spam. I hate his idea of cc immunity though. Supports were supposed to counter off tanks with cc, and it's still hard for them because supports were weakened. I'm literally going to make a thread about this because my goodness are supports not in a good state. Off tanks and supports died so flanks can become meta. Could've just given flanks more mobility and self sustain, but they instead nerfed off tanks and supports. The problem with Hi-Rez is that instead of buffing a class, they nerf another to indirectly buff their targeted class. They're trying hard to push the dps meta on us by killing tanks and supports. It's sad.



  • @HeartQueen You forgot to calculate that he can heal 1000 per 7.7s without this card, coz his base kit heals 1000. This card could give a bonus 900 heal per 7.7s what isn't a big deal 🙂



  • @AYYDIMITRI khans damage was destroyed. any buff will help



  • Pretty much everyone here... Dimitri not the biggest fan of Khan, he's said that on a couple of occassions.

    I myself was a Khan main when he was busted (because I can only play busted champions) and I think that his healing is rather underrated.

    The main issue with Khan being an off healer is that his healing doesn't grant ult charge (perhaps reason why we ain't seeing too absurd Skye nerfs in the next patch) but I think a good Khan player that wants to help out AoE healing (E.G. quadtank comp) would run Hold the Line and Lifetaker on his deck, and perhaps not go for Vortex so he can fire more often, and save the grab for evasive maneuvers.

    This card is interesting in the sense that he can constantly reset his heals and be a useful asset to help flankers attack, not just healing the team.

    Wouldn't it make... Idk... Offtanks busted again?



  • @Galvatwon

    Khan is not a well designed tank...
    Its actually pretty cheap design with a heap of issues. I'm not saying he is ineffective though.

    There is pleanty that can be done in cards to give him better mobility or better team synergy yes... but to give someone twice the standard healing power of a support is bonkers when you consider what can be done with it, how long it takes to kill something without a good weapon, multiplied by 4 team members making space for you.

    @HeartQueen you may disagree... but area cc cleanse make for a solid game mechanic, its widely used in mmos and moba and can be worked into paladins easily, it makes for an awesome supportive defence feature.

    Anti CC just has to be mitigated properly to match the pace which CC sits at while not being to opressive... Cc can hurt way more then any damage ability can, just as cc immunity can make characters into gods making them hard asf to lock down. Its about getting the values right and getting a balence. Paladins however has never really had good sense when it came to anti cc. Cause trying to lock down a cc immune skye was annoying with jenos, let alone the ammont of bugs it was causing with khan at the time with his command grab.

    You saw with the 4s CC immunity, just how insane that was... especially with a elim combo to reset often and keep perma anti cc... that is insane yes.
    But a 1s cleanse is nothing but a momentary area counter to combat control nukes and cc picks. Something this character only counters through his own cc.
    If the complaint is made that wasting a 15s CD hook that is countered by a lesser CD shout... well, maybe its the hook CD that is the issue, and its impact it too big in the game with out a momentary cc cleanse on a similar CD to counter it.
    Or with skye and jenos... once locked up, skye has little to escape with other then resil... good enough. But the shop should not be the only case to mitigate this and an instant area cleanse can help with that.

    The counter play is pressuring khan to use it for recovery rather then ally pursistance.

    As a supportive shout talent I would simply add 20% range and the 1s ally anti CC over a full recovery.

    And to say supports counter tanks... that is subject of debate, its a matter of positioning and team play. When fighing on their own terms Tanks are made to bully supports as well, attract or eat their cc abilities like its nothing while other champs dive the exposed foe. If a tank is forced into a position, or is flanked and left weak to any form of momentary lockdown that can lead to its death... There a whole lot going wrong with positioning and teamplay, as a tank should always work around areas where they are not exposed and suseptible to taking massive damage unless they have to.



  • @AYYDIMITRI

    @Demigod said in New off healer Khan:

    To Pretty much everyone here... Dimitri not the biggest fan of Khan, he's said that on a couple of occassions.

    I'm right about this right?



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in New off healer Khan:

    @Galvatwon

    Khan is not a well designed tank...
    Its actually pretty cheap design with a heap of issues. I'm not saying he is ineffective though.

    There is pleanty that can be done in cards to give him better mobility or better team synergy yes... but to give someone twice the standard healing power of a support is bonkers when you consider what can be done with it, how long it takes to kill something without a good weapon, multiplied by 4 team members making space for you.

    @HeartQueen you may disagree... but area cc cleanse make for a solid game mechanic, its widely used in mmos and moba and can be worked into paladins easily, it makes for an awesome supportive defence feature.

    Anti CC just has to be mitigated properly to match the pace which CC sits at while not being to opressive... Cc can hurt way more then any damage ability can, just as cc immunity can make characters into gods making them hard asf to lock down. Its about getting the values right and getting a balence. Paladins however has never really had good sense when it came to anti cc. Cause trying to lock down a cc immune skye was annoying with jenos, let alone the ammont of bugs it was causing with khan at the time with his command grab.

    You saw with the 4s CC immunity, just how insane that was... especially with a elim combo to reset often and keep perma anti cc... that is insane yes.
    But a 1s cleanse is nothing but a momentary area counter to combat control nukes and cc picks. Something this character only counters through his own cc.
    If the complaint is made that wasting a 15s CD hook that is countered by a lesser CD shout... well, maybe its the hook CD that is the issue, and its impact it too big in the game with out a momentary cc cleanse on a similar CD to counter it.
    Or with skye and jenos... once locked up, skye has little to escape with other then resil... good enough. But the shop should not be the only case to mitigate this and an instant area cleanse can help with that.

    The counter play is pressuring khan to use it for recovery rather then ally pursistance.

    As a supportive shout talent I would simply add 20% range and the 1s ally anti CC over a full recovery.

    And to say supports counter tanks... that is subject of debate, its a matter of positioning and team play. When fighing on their own terms Tanks are made to bully supports as well, attract or eat their cc abilities like its nothing while other champs dive the exposed foe. If a tank is forced into a position, or is flanked and left weak to any form of momentary lockdown that can lead to its death... There a whole lot going wrong with positioning and teamplay, as a tank should always work around areas where they are not exposed and suseptible to taking massive damage unless they have to.

    I think anti cc should be more for point tanks than off tanks. And only supports should provide the team with that utility. Off tanks counter damages and flanks. Supports and point tanks are the best counter to them because of cc. If you take away their weakness to cc, they get too oppressive. They are a fine backline and flank bruiser on their own, at least pre nerf, no need to add in optional cc immunity. Especially giving cc immunity to other people. Like I said, only supports should be able to give that kind of utility, and only point tanks should be able to make themselves cc immune.



  • @HeartQueen

    I agree with that.

    Party dynamics for Anti cc should be something that supports provide.

    Self anti CC is an ample trait for staying power for tanks and certain supports.

    But we are talking about dynamics to build a 'supportive' Khan here.
    And momentary anti CC provides great pocket staying power worthy of a talent, even at 1s..0.5s.. hell even 0.1s would still work as a counter to cc cluster busters, oras mentioned to stop your comrade at your shoulder getting yanked or locked down. THAT IS HUGE, THAT IS A TOP TIER BARBARIAN BATTLE CRY RIGHT THERE, for something so small of a value.
    Consider that this has a short radius and is tied to player location... it would just act like a breaker vs lockdown and not effect the total radius of certain ults... that is kind of what you want for a frontline support ability in order to keep characters like tyra alive from makoa.

    This shout effect currently only applies healing to allies with no talent option for team synergy potential, there really ought to be a talent that alters this effect to provide beneficial combat dynamics to protect and pocket an area, possibly allowing some of his shout cards to effect allies as a buff.

    His current talents are just small tweaks to ability values and nothing to write home about in terms of dynamics anyway.


  • PC

    I think what Khan definitely needs is a revert to his old shout CDR card, 11 seconds is a bit too long, maybe make it 13 seconds at base, not 14, so you can reduce it to 10 seconds. Now it feels you need to wait too long for the shout, and you can't go offensive when needed.



  • On the subject of Khan... I think he really didn't deserve the ammo nerfs and the nerfs to his Battle Shout. But it got nerfed anyway, and now he's rather weak...

    Kicsit's ideas can be helpful and make Khan better overall I guess.



  • @Demigod said in New off healer Khan:

    On the subject of Khan... I think he really didn't deserve the ammo nerfs and the nerfs to his Battle Shout. But it got nerfed anyway, and now he's rather weak...

    Kicsit's ideas can be helpful and make Khan better overall I guess.

    Khan and other off tanks died so flanks could be meta. Instead of buffing a weak class, Evil Mojo likes to nerf the strong class.


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