The experience of a new player that started since 9/2019, including feedback on balance issues before the PTS is up
maczerofun last edited by maczerofun
Hi, first off, keep in mind that I started playing this game since 9/2019 (Pirate BP), I'm currently level 150 on my main account.
This is a long post, detailing the changes to the game since I started playing Paladins
- I would like to start by reminding you, most new players think tanks are boring , and have no incentive to try out any (off tank) in quick play, in fact, most casual games have either 1 tank or 0 tanks, this was true ever since I joined, and isn't something new.
I was referred by 4 friends to this game, do you know why? because they wanted a tank player, my friends were all around level 54 when I joined, so you can get an idea of the amount of frustration that exists in casual.
today (2 Feb 2020) a streamer on the official paladins mixer stream (Lythes) went to play ranked stating that the only reason she did that was to get a chance to play with an actual team comp vs an actual team comp, and not a hodge podge chicken fight of 4 Flankers/4 DPS vs 4 Flankers/4 DPS, keep this in mind while you read.
I started the game by playing Makoa (my friends didn't know the difference between a point tank and an off tank and told me to buy Makoa for 30k gold), and was the solo tank in our team up to the point where my Makoa is level 25... so that's a lot of time spent playing Makoa, of course given that Makoa was OP I was actually doing great, especially when the enemy doesn't even have a tank, so casual was a breeze to be honest most times.
Then my friends wanted to play ranked with me.
Let's start from the beginning, people kept banning 2 Frontliners : Makoa, and Atlas, unless we were up against low Elo players in which case my friends would always save Makoa for me and 1 of my friends played Barik, that would be how we win, even though I used to stack the point (and so did my friends)
Then I bought Khan, and he was just another monster that I'd go to town with, and during one of my matches a random player taught us that Khan is supposed to zone and dismount the enemy, and that standing on the point doesn't make you capture it faster.
I kept up this attitude of buying tanks, so I got Barik, Inara, Makoa, Khan, and Ash, my friends warned me not to try playing Ruckus or Fernando or Torvald because they were bad, never thought of trying Terminus since I pretty much always won VS Terminus and I thought he was weak.
- Main point #1: Khan, Makoa, and Ash used to enable flankers, the most OP was having Moji behind you, it was basically a free win every time.
- flankers where weak mostly, it was just 3 flankers that you kept seeing who actually could do their job fine, Moji, Maeve, and Evie, the rest simply relied on their off tank heavily to get a chance.
- in most cases, the outcome of a point fight comes down to which pair of offtank and an ally (DPS or flank) won, then they would zone on the point or to dismount any respawning enemies.
- in season 2, only 2 point tanks existed, Barik and Inara.
- A niche tactic you used to be able to do was : if you have the first pick, you would ban both Barik and Inara then first pick jenos into a triple DPS comp, mostly with Ash as your point tank, and to counter that you would need to go triple tank (and make sure you get Makoa if he isn't banned), this tactic is still seen sometimes in this season.
TL;DR : off tanks where the meta.
Next I picked up supports and basically mained Io, and climbed to Plat1 99TP right before the season ended just by playing her.
I also played Jenos, Mal'Damba, and Furia back then.
" Season 3 "
Let's put the Frontline topic aside for a bit and discuss what happened
By the start of season 3, all supports got nerfed to the ground along with Cauterize, this was really off putting to all support mains, healing felt so sluggish, and people started using the term heal bot a lot, even with all the feedback during the PTS, the healing was still not as satisfying as it used to, back then, playing Io meant you could actually carry a team of randoms that would be feeding if you didn't apply DR to them, even Seris of all champs actually could pocket a Maeve and enable her to do her job, Furia's SB talent on someone who has a mic used to be able to snipe their flank/off tank with a beam and enable them, but now SB has been hard nerfed by slowing it down, citing players not catching the beam as the reason, well, let's be real, people still don't catch it now with this speed nerf.
so why was the change to supports necessary? simple, on Caut3 at 90%, the end of each match was mostly 4v4 at low Elo where support players don't know how to play around cauterize and just hold RMB or Q.
in the current patch, there are 4 supports that are actually viable, Furia, Jenos, Ying, and Grover on his maps.
-Mal'Damba lost most of his utility and his RMB (which I'm assuming he heals flankers with it) barely does anything even without cauterize, which is sad, buffing back his gourd does nothing to him, at all, healing tanks isn't exactly the sole job of a support you know, and his skill cap being way way above furia's means you should get a higher reward, most players on the official discord say that adding the current mending spirits to his base kit and returning wekono's curse would fix his issues, I agree.
-Pip? on MegaPotion, with Caut 3 applied, you heal for 600 every 3 seconds, with combat medic, you heal for 200 per shot and mostly forsake your damage output, not to mention his famous head hitbox.
Seris? I think we all know how bad she is, she is designed to be bad, but easy for new players.
Grohk, I'm sad he will lose his CC totem which actually used to counter CC heavy comps when you had another support (like for example Skye as an off support) or even in double support comps, but the fact his spirits domain talent was nerfed (I'm assuming based on that 1 game where Vex30 had 300k heals with Grohk on that talent) is just mystifying to me, 500 heals per second while forsaking your damage output for it and while you barely have any self sustain is just sad, to heal an inara at 1 HP without caut you need 10 seconds, isn't that just laughable?, with Caut 3 that's impossible, so basically that talent was removed from the game.
of course damage Grohk is in a questionable situation with all the nerfs to his cards but the inclusion of an extra bounce on his shock pulse, so that remains to be tested.
Io : I'm fairly known in the community for calling out anyone not using Godess Blessing to be a thrower (I'm not toxic about it though! you do you), but even with 25% DR in this meta (the talent is bugged but will be fixed) she doesn't feel that great, her healing numbers being nerfed really made you question why you would pick her in the first place, not to mention how people in the meta just flame you if you try picking anyone other than Jenos/Furia.
I'm going to skip talking about Damage since barely any changes happened, and Flankers are known to be super amped this patch where Zhin rules over all and Koga can be so annoying and deals more damage than most damage champs do even at range, you have Maeve which can actually pretend to be inara with all that DR on her with her infinite poke range for 800, I'm glad flankers are back to being a part of the game since I guess we had a lot of them and most of them never saw play, even now we have a bunch of them that don't see much time in the sunlight.
So now that we established supports being nerfed that hard, and how OP flankers are, let's get back to Frontliners which are the #1 issue this patch and in the sands of myth update.
1- Barik was super buffed, yes, he can heal himself for 1600 over 4 seconds using double time 5, and do that twice every 30 seconds with Failsafe 3, he can have up to 4k HP, and can heal in 2 ways through his turrets, Barik does 500 damage on body shots and up to 750 on head shots (without tinkern of course), making him the best point tank ever.
The sands of myth update nerfs his Double time card to 750 instead of 1600 but over 3 seconds instead of 4 iirc, and nerfs Healing Station and Field Deploy, which finally brings back Inara vs Barik, or what I like to say: High skill VS not so high skill gameplay.
2- Inara, her -15 damage nerf really wasn't anything to write home about yet I'm glad they gave it back, but Barik existing is the reason people say she is B tier, also, it is agreed upon that Inara is the most boring champion to play as, she is good, and can still outsmart a barik and can even still use Treacherous Grounds against certain comps without much fear of dying.
my longest fight as Inara vs Barik this patch ended with me taking 12k damage from him and his turrets, that's a lot of damage, and to me no, Inara isn't boring at all.
3- Terminus, now terminus is viable because his siphon is good, he can keep it up for a bit longer, sadly, since a set of the player base (mostly console auto aim and low Elo pc players) complained about his siphon being infinite due to the card abomination, which isn't actually true, just don't feed his siphon, either stun him out of it, or ignore him until it ends and change your focus, or just abuse this : Terminus has 2 death buttons : if he presses F mid fight, he dies, if he presses LMB mid fight, he dies, if he presses RMB, he might trade with a squishy buy he dies,
- Abomination will be nerfed to 10% max
this is sad, on high Elo this means terminus will see less play since people know how to play around that, I'm not saying he isn't viable anymore, just a bit less tanky.
4- Khan, currently, his shield is made of paper, and is almost worthless, why?
- Koga farms shields for energy, this won't change in the sands of myth, wrecker procs AdrenalineJunky, also koga can bypass it by dashing through it or skewering through it.
- Andro just dashes above it and headshots khan.
- Maeve jumps over it.
- Zhin whirls through it.
Khan currently has only 1 viable talent, Vortex grip, sadly, khan will not win 1v1 against koga (even without a jenos pocket) or a 1v1 against Zhin or a 1v1 against Maeve.
why am I saying 1v1? because even GMs and Masters currently leave their off tank alone mid fight to save themselves just to get reckt a few moments later, so I'll keep saying 1v1 for the next few tanks.
Khan also does barely any damage now, which is sad, even after securing any stun, your stun target has a chance to eliminate you before you do, his long cooldowns are sad, his DR on the stun only procs after you hit the stun not when you initiate it which is sad.
- Currently, most Khan players I see (who are GMs by the way) play near the point to secure a stun on the enemy Barik, which is actually enough time to burst Barik down before he can dash, which is one of the main reasons people say Khan is still playable (along his ult).
5- Makoa, before the sands of myth update, missing a hook means you lose a point fight, makoa deals no damage, his rate of fire is so slow to the extent where missing 1 shot means your enemy is out of cauterize, which means their jenos pocket would have 2 full seconds (360HP) of uncauterized healing, meaning you just did 200 points of damage just because you missed once.
also, if you have a backline damage or your flanker doesn't follow you, you are basically a second point tank or a feeder, your job is just to hook the support into the point where your backline damage would get a few shots on her, Makoa's shield is so easy to destroy, is farmable by Koga, and you having to play Half shell to do damage while shielding is just sad, and in this bursty meta, even during Makoa's ult, he can be burst down in less than 3 seconds because people know they need to focus on him, what does the sands of myth update promise? 1k less HP on his ult, which is so slow to charge up in the first place, so it's like once per round only.
Makoa, basically doesn't exist.
6- Raum : overperforming on all Elo levels has been cited, I agree, nerfing his DR to 50% will only change the timing he starts running, not to mention that even without that nerf, 1 CC takes him out of it, so basically it was more like 0% DR on high Elo, really, nothing will change, and yes, it is good that raum will still be a viable off tank, thanks for not deleting him.
7- Ash, why do people say Ash is D tier? her win rate is the same as Khan, she is one of the few remaining off tanks that can actually punish and bully flankers, I'm glad she'll get her damage reverted (hope they also remember to buff slugshot too), she is farmable like the other shield tanks but her ult is also underrated, people forget it has a stun on it too, the more CC the better in this meta, also Ash has a good sustain, khan, with his low low damage, does not, and his lifesteal card isn't worth it to me.
8- Atlas, good, learn him, he is a great off tank, his damage is good, learn not to save the enemy team with your ult and RMB, do that and you are golden, hope they never change anything about him, ever.
9- Ruckus, bullied by the community, most flankers/damage players state that he isn't an off tank because he has no shield for them, Ruckus is finally in a good spot, people just need to love him more.
10- Fernando : viable as an off tank, one of the few off tanks that has a chance to duel Zhin 1v1 and win, people still didn't adapt to him much but still he is in a good spot.
11- Torvald: I hope the rework comes soon, we really need some point tanks to spice up the game, glad he'll be nerfed so his Q can be destroyed by 1 shot if he isn't running thanks grandpa.
Tanks, are boring, yes, this will remain true until this no skill just spam meta ends, I called it that because what exactly do you do on koga? you just shoot and track your target from 80 units away (even farther than that works), you dash out of danger and cleanse cauterize or whatever affects you, you win 1v1s against any tank, on Zhin it's the same but with barely any aim needed, these 2 low skill champ should have low rewards, put the high rewards on champs that take skill, like Andro and Evie (even Maeve which is universally hated takes skill), why do I have this feeling Evie is hated that much?.
- Supports are in a sad state, currently Furia has the highest WR, followed by io only because io still has 25% DR, which I think should only be brought down to 20% not 15%, having so many champions being unviable is a waste of this game's potential, let me explain it in the most convoluted way:
On damage, you can be a sniper and stay in the backline, same for Viktor and Vivian.
Or you can be aggressive in the back line and have the potential to dive a bit to get good plays, which is done on Lian and Cassie.
You can play BK and be as aggressive as you like and position however the situation requires and you can zone with grumpy bomb.
You can spam the point as dredge.
You can fly, if you abuse the enemy team having no hitscanners and play Drogoz to melt shields and possibly secure tank eliminations or anyone really.
You can play Imani and rain down fire from the skye or summon a Dragon
Even Sha lin has a niche to him
Why did I list that? because supports don't have that much versatility currently, you mostly stay way back and heal and try as hard as you can on anyone other than Jenos to cover your Flankers, on Furia it's manageable, on Mal'Damba that's nearly impossible, on Grover you force your team to stack which is not a good thing on most maps, with Skype as an off support you free your main support for the flanker while you heal the point tank, with Io you pocket your flanker with DR to secure eliminations, with pip your ult is so amazing it wins point fights or defends against pushes, meanwhile Damba is so situational it's mostly used to peel you from a flanker.
- What I'm saying is : last patch you actually could carry games as Damba, or carry games as Io or carry games as any support really, right now supports have to be carried, it is sad, at high levels, all supports except Furia to an extent are passive players that might just as well be one day replaced by an advanced AI bot, it is becoming BORING to play supports.
- This is why there are 5 Flankers/5 DPS matches in casual.
so what are my views on the upcoming update?
simply put, nerfing tanks, is a bad idea when casual simply doesn't exist because no one wants to play tanks, nerfing anything based on low Elo is just not a good idea, and not teaching the new players how the game mechanics work isn't an excuse to make no skill champs high tier.
so how would I fix the issue of new players simply not knowing how to play the game?
how about you allow level 200+ players to be a special spectator that coaches new players? oh wait that doesn't work in our world, not when you are toxic if you tell someone that they need to use something other than the default loadout
what are the actually good suggestions that take no time to implement?
- Make the default loadouts better, maybe even make them 6 not 3, because you know as much as we do that most champions have the illusion of choice where only 1 talent is viable.
- Keep a persistent **press i to buy **message on players screen, when people press ESC at the start of a match, keep a persistent press u to pick a loadout and a talent message on their screen.
- make ranked requirements way higher, level 15 is achievable in 9 hours 40 minutes, to test that, start at midnight, pick the currently on free rotation champion, Moji, and play siege+TDM+onslaught through quickplay (you'll be forced against bots but this will not count as training) then once you have gotten the queue gold bonus, do the same for training, then do the 3 quests if you haven't already done them accidentally.
Then link twitch to your account to get Ying for free, link steam to get Barik for free (when you unlock his TF2 skin you also unlock him), then you buy the 15k gold champions which are Pip, Buck, and Grohk
you should have already gotten most achievements from your first match ever as Moji, each giving you 1k gold, play the tutorial for an extra 25k gold
you need 1 more champion to enter ranked at level 15, here comes the waiting time, where you wait until the new quests and new queue bonus starts, or you might have been lucky and got just enough gold to do that in 3 hours only.
you see, currently, getting into ranked is so easy, and with no mechanics being explained at all in game (The comeback mechanic, Zoning, off tanks, point capture not actually being faster when you stack on it, the importance of kill streaks, etc) simply means that most of the player base is having the very same issue that the streamer Swindy was having yesterday (on 9 Feb/2020) where he had 4 players on his team that were so new to the game, which made him lose a lot of TP when it wasn't his fault.
Which reminds me: now that the end of match screen is getting reworked, wouldn't you think that losing when you are the top of your class or whatever new titles have been added should actually make you lose a maximum of 4TP? wouldn't you think that when you have a literal bot (after someone crashes and doesn't reconnect) that the entire team should lose 0TP? it's enough that their time was wasted, this is a team based game, how do you punish someone for simply being unlucky?
on that topic, let's be real, this game has rank resets like every other game, but, it isn't healthy here, let me explain.
you can have 5 stacked season 2 GMs, going VS silver,gold,Plat and did players, not fair at all.
- I'm saying, you are forcing GMs to actually be smurfs on their main account, which means until they are back to Dia5, they are going to bully other players, then once they reach dia5, they are stuck their unless they choose carefully what time they play at.
- one last point in this wall of text : casual, does not exist for a lot of player
- you cannot learn off tanking in casual because your team will only have you as a tank 90% of the time, and even then you'll be offtanking against 4 damage or 4 flankers.
- you cannot actually learn flank positioning and when to dive, except in ranked, because neither team has the composition of 2 tanks 1dps 1flank 1 support.
so what do people do? they either YOLO and ignore everyone while they get flamed, get reported, get banned for a day or 3, or, they smurf.
take me as an example, a guy that his friends forced him only to play tanks and supports for 5 months!!! (I'm 25 and so are my friends), I cannot solo queue, why? because I'm always the first pick, I pick a tank or a support, then the rest of my team which is usually lower than my Elo has to go damage/flank, which as the community knows, has a high chance to just lose because they are either not familiar with those roles (like me!) or simply aren't good enough at those roles.
I have high hopes for the next patch being good, I just don't see any point in nerfing anything, I hate double standards, citing overperforming to nerf anything while not citing underperforming is just laziness, I've put 1 months salary into this game so far and I will keep supporting it, but I wish that you would adapt buffing champions a whole lot more than nerfing, it is a miracle that all the damage champs are so well balanced and each has a set role and positioning requirement, and I hope that when Tiberius hits ranked he would just be on par with Cassie or a bit lower than her.
That was a wall of text
I hope people still read in this world.
Demigod last edited by
That was a wall of text
I hope people still read in this world.
I just finished Lemony Snicket's ASOUE
I don't have time to read this.
But it's long, and I think it's a really nice post after skimming. So I'll just give you an upvote.
Shadowpuppy last edited by
I finished reading the wall and it can be summed up in, I am tank main and i do not agree with the new balance changes.
Everything in this post is pretty accurate.
Off tanks are in fact weaker than before. This was the intention of the balance.
Khan previously was able to kill as fast as any flanker or damage in the game. He did not require anything but line of sight to shoot people to death and if he pushed to far he would just shield up and walk away. Now off tanks have to actually wait for a mistake before pushing in.
The purpose of the off tank is to hold space on one side of the map. Control that space so your team has rotation potential if they get pushed from the other side as well as maintaining control of space to prevent your team from being surrounded. However some of the off tanks where so deadly that they could not only hold that ground but they could walk into damages and flanks and destroy them.
The reason for the rise of jenos and furia is that people are still playing the same meta and have started picking up healers that can provide that missing damage that used to come from those off tanks. Furia and Jenos have allot of free time to shoot things.
I not quite sure that double tank is meta, its viable but i think rank could still work single tank comps. But everyone is still just doing the same stuff. Healers can still carry games but its not from just heal bot. They have to lay down damage and CC to carry.
I like the new balance changes but i think we have yet to see the meta catch up on how this all works.
Terminus was way to easy to play. Even if no one shot you have 1 free shot every 3 seconds so you always get 15% of your siphon back when you drop it every time. If someone shoots it by mistake it was even worst. You are still getting 10% with the change so i see it as good balance as it was never down. To be honest i think it will still be up all the time even with this change.
ONE THING THAT DOES NEED TO HAPPEN
We need more actual point tanks.
Torvald - Makoa should both get shield buffs to bring them into point tank territory