Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently



  • TL;DR : Most off tanks are bad, new players think double flank/double support is the only way to go.

    So, off tanks, what exactly is wrong with them?

    • Ruckus cannot 1v1 Tiberius, Cassie has a good chance to finish you off even without Big game, on Big game Cassie wins 1v1 Ruckus, and andro can also 1v1 a ruckus in a heashot contest if your dashes have been used up or if the Andro is good, not saying ruckus is bad though :3

    • Khan's DR card procs after he hits his commanders grab, meaning you have to hug your stun target before attempting it or you get erased by a nearby Cassie or any flanker.

    • Koga,Maeve,and Andro, all win 1v1 against khan.

    • Shields, are made of paper.

    • Makoa, if you hook someone, if your teammates aren't looking at them, that someone will just kill you before you can do anything about it even if you hit every shot, his fire rate should've been buffed, he isn't playable anymore because missing 1 hook = losing a point fight because he is useless, and hitting 1 hook doesn't guarantee you anything if your team is pepegas.

    • Zhin, will be nerfed talent wise, and not the base kit, so Zhin keeps his ability to win every 1v1 any tank.

    • Koga, currently, farms shields for energy, and can bypass all shields with dashing through them or by using skewer spam, in both cases, Koga wins 1v1 vs most tanks even without a Jenos pocket, the base damage and long range poke which will never be changed allow him to deal more damage than almost any damage champion, which is just silly, I hope his new nerfs make him not viable because low skill high reward shouldn't be a thing.

    • In ranked, you get people that do not want to play off tank and simply state it as is because off tanks feel meh currently, and every new player thinks tanks are boring.

      • New players don't exactly have a free point tank but Barik is only 15k gold, yet if would really suggest making half the tanks free so people would at least try them out? it kind of isn't fun watching the official mixer channel when the streamer gets 4 pepegas that don't know what off tank means? maybe separate frontliners in game into point and off tanks by adding a little text box so all of those new players would know there is a difference?
      • The only game mode where you can actually learn off tanking correctly is in ranked, in casual it's 1 tank in 90% of the games, so the most boring class also requires dedication, teamwork, and time investment, good luck getting new players of that low of an Elo to understand that, last patch, a new player could pick khan for example and enjoy actually being able to do something, or Makoa and rampaging on the enemy to teach them to ban him next time, now off tanks are a Joke that's necessary to win and enjoy the game.
    • Matches on higher levels mostly have 3 people just doing their job fine enough : the point tank, the off tank, and the support, meanwhile the actual outcome of the game is decided by the flank first, and the damage second, a support simply cannot carry (Furia boys don't look at me), and a tank cannot carry (Barik boys, get ready to be nerfed), at least not to the extent a flanker can, even damage champions have a harder time carrying thank flankers.

    • I'm saying this is a 2v2 +3+3 meta, not much fun can be had from playing support unless you are Furia, and the same goes for frontliners other than Barik, those 3 roles are just, enablers, nothing else.

    last patch the supports actually could carry, MalDamba could carry, Io could carry, heck even a good pip can carry.

    of course everyone hated Makoa Khan Atlas and Ash because I was beaten by a boring champion is apparently a thing, maybe just bring back supports if tanks are just doomed because the meta has to rotate which class has to be dead?
    Having 4 supports only out of all the available ones isn't a healthy thing for the game, and Grohk's rework doesn't change anything he still is a damage champion and you must never remove that from him, he has a role, punish deployables, do a lot of damage, not to mention the weird nerf on spirits domain which has a 47% win rate, well, I'm not exactly a chemist that specializes in realm balance but at least remove the illusion of choice and delete all the non viable talents so new players don't pick them?.

    note: to anyone that would like to comment that off tanks need back up, I had 4 games as khan where a GM BK that was behind me would not secure the kill on a stunned Makoa, a stunned, a stunned Furia, or a stunned Barik, instead he ran away every time just to be killed a few moments after I die to whomever I stunned :3

    the other games on other tanks : 1 Koga refused to flank and played backline damage because I was Ruckus and by his words you don't have a shield so you are useless to me and I had to keep kinessa dead all by myself on splitsone quarry while she had DREDGE with her, sad.

    1 match the enemy team banned both Barik and inara, then first picked Terminus, I saved a Furia for our last pick, then the team left me as a solo tank Ash VS Terminus and Torvald on Frog Isle, the enemy of course had Jenos with BK cuz my team wanted Strix and Kinessa banned xD

    This meta, is balanced, but not healthy in the long term, next meta, more nerfs are coming, Barik is being toned down which I'm happy about, but I would've really really rathered if you buffed everyone to his level so tanks can actually be tanks and not ult batteries.

    Raum's upcoming nerf tbh doesn't change anything, he never really had a chance to run anyways because if you did let him run you basically lost your backline's attention span to him while the enemy pushes.

    Terms nerf was uncalled for, add a tooltip do not feed Terminus's siphon because he will get it back on AND punish you for it, just teach players to stun him out of it or bait any action from him, Term dies so fast if he doesn't have his siphon up, now Term is less viable as a point tank thanks to this nerf, I'm not saying he has been deleted but still that nerf, was unnecessary and PC players got the short stick because auto aim made console players forced to feed it, idc if this is true or not, this nerf, wasn't needed.

    rant done :3, ignore it, bye bye now.



  • @maczerofun Off tank does not mean kill everything tank. A large amount of people that think they are good at off tank are actually just damage dealers that where good at tracking and killing things with tanks that did to much damage.

    Tanks are far from boring, they take allot of game knowledge to do well with.

    Most Khans are currently running around diving into shit that they should not be diving into and getting punished. The real issue is that khan was allowed to get away with this reckless play style for so long that people think its how he should be played. Khan could kill anything in seconds before so he could just run into 3 people kill someone and then shield up and back away. That shit no longer works any more because he can no longer burst people down so fast. Andro is made to kill khan, its not shocking that he wins 1v1

    The big difference is that off tanks need opening to make plays.....
    Before Makoa or Khan didnt need an opening, they just ran up into your face and killed you.
    Now they need to wait for someone to make a mistake before trying to rush you.

    Counter Play

    Grohks changes are going help him greatly.....
    Even if we simplify it ... TOTUMS stack

    So grohk could place all three totums back to back and be healing an area for 900HP a second and all three would be back up in 10 seconds.... Thats 5 seconds off and almost double the amount of healing. The fact that you can split your healing between multiple targets is huge. Gale will allow you to get that cool down to 7 seconds.... Chronos 3 will take it down by another 3 seconds... So he can have all three totums up at once with a 4 second down time... Ghost walk is increased so gale so it will not be spamable but it will be pretty strong.


  • PC



  • @shadowchess said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    @maczerofun Off tank does not mean kill everything tank. A large amount of people that think they are good at off tank are actually just damage dealers that where good at tracking and killing things with tanks that did to much damage.

    Tanks are far from boring, they take allot of game knowledge to do well with.

    Most Khans are currently running around diving into shit that they should not be diving into and getting punished. The real issue is that khan was allowed to get away with this reckless play style for so long that people think its how he should be played. Khan could kill anything in seconds before so he could just run into 3 people kill someone and then shield up and back away. That shit no longer works any more because he can no longer burst people down so fast. Andro is made to kill khan, its not shocking that he wins 1v1

    The big difference is that off tanks need opening to make plays.....
    Before Makoa or Khan didnt need an opening, they just ran up into your face and killed you.
    Now they need to wait for someone to make a mistake before trying to rush you.

    Counter Play

    Grohks changes are going help him greatly.....
    Even if we simplify it ... TOTUMS stack

    So grohk could place all three totums back to back and be healing an area for 900HP a second and all three would be back up in 10 seconds.... Thats 5 seconds off and almost double the amount of healing. The fact that you can split your healing between multiple targets is huge. Gale will allow you to get that cool down to 7 seconds.... Chronos 3 will take it down by another 3 seconds... So he can have all three totums up at once with a 4 second down time... Ghost walk is increased so gale so it will not be spamable but it will be pretty strong.

    Khan had many counters before... Oh wait, the flank mains nerfed the biggest counters of off tanks, which were supports! Then flank mains got mad that with supports nerfed, the best counters for off tanks, that off tanks rose up in the meta. Dude, it's common fucking sense. If you nerf the counter of something, the thing that the counter countered, gets an indirect buff. If you nerf scissors, paper gets an indirect buff. Scissors can't do much against paper, therefore paper is able to dominate rock.

    Also, flank mains have this wacky sense of balance. Instead of nerfing everyone else, why not suggest buffs for flanks? Flanks just needed more self sustain and mobility, while supports needed more cc. The supports would keep off tanks in checks, while flanks with more self sustain and mobility could get away rush in and rush out. That's how you balance. Not, "Wah!!! I keep getting killed by off tanks as a flank, even though off tanks are supposed to counter flanks! I want them nerfed!" Then you get the damage and flank meta, because why not?



  • @HeartQueen Im not even sure how your relpy makes any since in the coversation this thread is discussing.

    If your stating that Khan was balanced before, thats just silly.

    If your saying flanks got an indirect buff from tank nerfs, you are correct. That was part of the intention.

    Khan and Koa where really good flankers with 4k health.



  • @shadowchess said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    @HeartQueen Im not even sure how your relpy makes any since in the coversation this thread is discussing.

    If your stating that Khan was balanced before, thats just silly.

    If your saying flanks got an indirect buff from tank nerfs, you are correct. That was part of the intention.

    Khan and Koa where really good flankers with 4k health.

    This is about off tanks doing bad against flankers. Hi-Rez nerfed off tanks so flanks could be meta. I'm criticizing this decision because it was a bad decision. Instead of nerfing off tanks, they should have just buffed flanks. Instead they killed off tanks. Off tanks are made to counter flanks, they keep flanks in check. If no one can keep flanks in check, that make for a horrible meta. Every class in my opinion should be buffed to keep everyone else in check. You don't want a dominant class.

    Khan's only broken talent was Storm of Bullets before because he could out dps a Drogoz if he were good enough. That's not acceptable. That just means Storm of Bullets needed a nerf though, not his base kit. This is another problem with Hi-Rez. If Ying does too much healing with Life Exchange, then Life Exchange needs a nerf, not her base kit. Her base heals are bad and actually need a buff, but Hi-Rez would nerf both. See how bad that sort of stuff is?

    Khan and Makoa could never replace a good Evie or Maeve. Other flankers need to be brought up to their level. They should all have optional vertical mobility, and just a ton of mobility and self sustain actually. That's more balanced than, "just make Makoa and Khan crap." It's like a teacher noticing a student with a 92% and and another student with a 76%. Instead of bring that 76% student to up to an 84%, she would rather bring the 96% student down to an 84%. That's literally Hi-Rez.



  • Flanks who can shred tanks feel very frustrating for the tank player. I play only Nando and Raum and Torv as offtanks and they seem to work. But now I read this, there are indeed no games anymore with tanks dominating like Makoa 40:3 or Khan 30:4, while Maeve or Evie are still doing this.


  • PC

    @HeartQueen I definitely agree, they overnerfed some off tanks too much, like Ash (thank God it will be reverted again) or Khan on everything but the stun, flanks are meta currently and they have been consecutively buffed, to the point they do counter tanks, not even talking about squishier supports. And as M3RC3N4RI0 mentioned, it feels frustrating to play vs a flank who can down you on his abilities, or using tank deleting abilities/ults like Guillo or Street Justice.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    Flanks who can shred tanks feel very frustrating for the tank player.
    I play only Nando and Raum and Torv as offtanks and they seem to work.

    At least Guillotine is getting the damage immunity removed. Still dumb, but not cancer. Also Koga's getting gutted which is also nice, sort of. Maeve still is way stronger than she should be.

    They're pretty much the only good ones at this point aside from debatably Term and Khan (in some situations, but not most of the time), at least on live. In PTS it looks like off-tanks are even worse off with the exception of Ash... I mean they did sort of buff Koa shield builds, but that's a POINT build. The changes are actually a NERF to OT Koa.

    Looking like next patch Ash and Nando are going to be the only good off-tanks. Raum will probably be okay, but not nearly as good as he was. Term off-tank is dead with the card nerfs, but it didn't need to be a thing to begin with.

    Buff Atlas and OFF-TANK Koa EM (even though it may not be quite that simple with the latter), just please.



  • @Dusklicious Term is not dead... he will get 40% of his shield back instead of 60%...The nerfs just mean he cant stand on point unsupported for ass long and when peoplen shoot his shield it wont be as impacting of a mistake.

    Koa needs the 1k extra shield just put into the legendary. His cards need work, they just mostly suck and you cant really create any thing neet out of them.

    Koa Card Ideas

    • Reduce the cool down of hook on miss by 2|2 seconds

    • Hiting hook grants 2%|2% Ult Charge

    • Increase Speed when shield is deployed 8|8%

    • Passing through Koa shield does 100|100 damage.... can only trigger once every 3 seconds

    • Legendary Shell spin does 300% more damage. Would equal 600 damage.

    • Legendary hitting hook reduces ultimate charge by 5%


  • PC

    @shadowchess said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    @Dusklicious Term is not dead... he will get 40% of his shield back instead of 60%...The nerfs just mean he cant stand on point unsupported for ass long and when peoplen shoot his shield it wont be as impacting of a mistake.

    I never said Term as a WHOLE is dead I said Term OFF-TANK is dead. And this does make it dead because he doesn't have the sustain to make it work with his lack of mobility. As a POINT tank he's still looking pretty good. It does affect his viability in the role though. With Inara's damage un-nerfs, it's looking pretty close between the two when it comes to who is better point.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    Flanks who can shred tanks feel very frustrating for the tank player. I play only Nando and Raum and Torv as offtanks and they seem to work. But now I read this, there are indeed no games anymore with tanks dominating like Makoa 40:3 or Khan 30:4, while Maeve or Evie are still doing this.

    Most people play flanks, and want easy kills. This wouldn't be so bad because most people secretly want an easier game, unless you're like Goku and constantly want a challenge. The problem is that they screw of the balance, and they being dps mains.

    @Averey said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    @HeartQueen I definitely agree, they overnerfed some off tanks too much, like Ash (thank God it will be reverted again) or Khan on everything but the stun, flanks are meta currently and they have been consecutively buffed, to the point they do counter tanks, not even talking about squishier supports. And as M3RC3N4RI0 mentioned, it feels frustrating to play vs a flank who can down you on his abilities, or using tank deleting abilities/ults like Guillo or Street Justice.

    I really despise flanks having tank busting talents. That's not balanced at all. I think all flanks should have: a talent that does more damage, vertical mobility (whether in the base kit or through a talent), a talent that heightens mobility, and a talent that gives them more sustain. Debilitate, Guillotine, Street Justice, etc., do not belong on flanks. Instead of nerfing off tanks, they need to buff flanks. I want flanks to have more self sustain, more mobility, vertical mobility on all flanks, etc. In return, off tanks need to be strong enough to counter them. At the same time, I want point tanks and supports buffed enough to counter off tanks.

    Point tank versus off tank examples that happened even before the nerfs: Barik countered Atlas, Makoa, and Khan. Inara countered Ash, Makoa, and Raum. Terminus countered Ruckus, Fernando, and Raum. Supports naturally countered all off tanks if going damage/cc, but they spend so much time healing that they can't keep off tanks in check.

    @Dusklicious said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

    Flanks who can shred tanks feel very frustrating for the tank player.
    I play only Nando and Raum and Torv as offtanks and they seem to work.

    At least Guillotine is getting the damage immunity removed. Still dumb, but not cancer. Also Koga's getting gutted which is also nice, sort of. Maeve still is way stronger than she should be.

    They're pretty much the only good ones at this point aside from debatably Term and Khan (in some situations, but not most of the time), at least on live. In PTS it looks like off-tanks are even worse off with the exception of Ash... I mean they did sort of buff Koa shield builds, but that's a POINT build. The changes are actually a NERF to OT Koa.

    Looking like next patch Ash and Nando are going to be the only good off-tanks. Raum will probably be okay, but not nearly as good as he was. Term off-tank is dead with the card nerfs, but it didn't need to be a thing to begin with.

    Buff Atlas and OFF-TANK Koa EM (even though it may not be quite that simple with the latter), just please.

    Makoa was a wonderful off tank. They just needed to replace leviathon with Davy Jones Locker, and remove cc immunity altogether. Seriously, a champion with high health, decent damage, great cc, and you give that guy cc immunity on top of that? What was Hi-Rez thinking? Off tanks don't need cc immunity in my opinion. That's something more for a point tank. Off tanks have decent mobility, high health point, and decent enough cc and damage to counter flankers. Giving any off tank cc immunity makes their kit bloated, and broken.

    I personally hate ult talents on any character, so I hate Guillotine on Zhin, Nothing Personal on Talus, and Snow Globe on Evie. Though I'll make an exception for Evie because aside from her ult, she has no other way of attacking.

    Atlas was unfairly nerfed. With the nerfs to resilience, they just needed to tone down his crowd control to match. Instead they nerf his damage, and he literally only has one way to damage. Besides, he's a sniper. He's might to have a hard hitting shot. They did Khan the same way.


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