Dusklicious' Tier List



  • Aw, come on, Grohk isn't that bad. His healing is not so good but he compensates with his speed-buff and ult. At Platin he is viable.

    I started playing Willo and she is surprisingly strong. Flutter to some high ground, throw seedlings and green anti-heal puddle, shoot a bit, flutter to another position. It's not super damage but she is annoying and difficult to pin down. A bit map dependent.

    I came to hate Jenos. This champ is so useless at Platin. I lose almost every match if I have a Jenos as healer. How do you play a point tank with this "heal"?


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0 jenos has the same priority than furia in diamond.

    As a point tank when you have a jenos you a lot of ways of playing depending the champion, jenos is especially strong with barik but if you are playing as inara or term you need to play as if you had 1k hp less. Play hyper aggresive as soon as you get in to the point to burst/force to run away the enemy point tank (help from your damage dealer is appreciated) or just play passive, jenos mark does wonders for damage dealers and flankers so let them carry while you play weak side of the point tank matchup without dying.

    With jenos you can get bursty even as a point tank but lose in sustain, thats why you need to play as if you had 1k hp less because you need more space to retreat, he wont burst heal you. Other option is just leave the point and go with your team until you get one kill then rush point, but its quite risky. I prefer just being aggresive, suits more my playstyle.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 Jenos isna good healer but, he cannot help bad tanks.... Tanks that sit on point and take damage are not going to do well with Jenos...

    Alot of people think they know how to tank but in reality they just win when they have really good healers... If you die seconds affer your healer dies, your probably a crappy tank.


  • PC

    @Shadowpuppy said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    @M3RC3N4RI0 Jenos isna good healer but, he cannot help bad tanks.... Tanks that sit on point and take damage are not going to do well with Jenos...

    Alot of people think they know how to tank but in reality they just win when they have really good healers... If you die seconds affer your healer dies, your probably a crappy tank.

    Pretty much. Tank is a much harder role to play than it looks to your average pew pew damage main would say it is. It's not harder than flanking IMHO for sure, but it's still not just about sitting on objectives...

    Also when I was in Plat 75% of the tanks I encountered were bad.



  • @Dusklicious yea. im in plat and its like they dont know what retreat is... They will just stay on point till they die.


  • PC

    @Shadowpuppy said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    @Dusklicious yea. im in plat and its like they dont know what retreat is... They will just stay on point till they die.

    I'm Diamond and people there still don't understand the concept of retreating and grouping. Heck I see Masters and GMs f*** it up. But below Diamond every other player seems like a moron who has no idea what they're doing in my experience.



  • @Dusklicious said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    Maeve- I just don't see top tier for her, simply because honestly her ult kind of sucks. Really about it.

    She is overrated af.

    Cassie

    Why is Cassie higher than lian? tf.

    Ash- What toggle? IT DOESN'T WORK.

    They said on the patch preview this change wont be ready on this pts cycle.

    Sha'Lin- I was toying with the concept of putting Sha in high tier because of the new Desert Silence, but nobody seems to have noticed the buff, or Recurve is still going to be meta. Most every flanker's sanity is better off that way.

    That's because Desert Silence was always overrated talent on release, just as Gourd Damba who is a glorified Solar Blessing Furia. I was laughing my butt off when they nerfed both of these.

    Jenos- Ehh, I think he's more than okay. I'm not sure what all this doom-saying is about, but he was the safest champion in the entire game before. Healers that heal through walls don't need the kind of range he had pre-nerf.

    Still top tier.

    Corvus- Corvus is around where Inara and Evie are, and that would mean... He's just OK and that's it? Yeah, pretty much. His healing is actually not that great, even with the mark considered, and my goodness is his ult terrible for a support. Not to mention that 1k DPS looks a LOT better on paper than it is in-game. His DPS actually feels, not broken, just a little much for a support is it. I thought he'd be much better than this, in fact I originally thought he'd be a high tier.

    Corvus is literally Seris. Extreme amount of heals and selfheal, amazing escape, 0 utility and trash ult. I still think he's better than her because he can heal through walls.

    Mal'Damba- The buffs aren't that big of a deal. There's quite a few of them, but they're all so tiny as to be barely noticeable. Still just think he's a little underrated.

    Mal Damba was in huge need of buffs. Didn't play him yet, but he sounds better than he ever was.

    Imani- Buffs help a little bit, but not much.

    Imani is, and always was, a better Sha Lin. Which is why this tier list is incorrect.

    Fernando- Dash buff shouldn't even be called a buff. It's just a QoL adjustment that happens to help him the tiniest of bits. It doesn't really do anything for him at all.

    I just wanted them to cut 1s cd off his charge and fireball. This will align the cd of his Hot Pursuit and Looks that Kill cards.

    Furia- Oh boy did I get it wrong. But Z1's still getting an honorary Darwin Award for this one, because IT KILLED THE CHARACTER. It is now barely even POSSIBLE to build up Wrath... It may as well not even be in the game. I hope the numbskulls who voted him in are happy.

    Let me guess... While you were testing furia nerfs you had Corvus in your match. Fun fact, she always had trouble getting up her wraith full with 2nd support. I will say something extremely risky but I feel like she really needs more nerf than that. We'll see.

    Atlas- His buffs were a bit helpful, but not really enough to place him higher. He's essentially just kind of viable, but not really good in any capacity. He still lacks damage and he still lacks sustain and his F cooldown is still a little too long.

    He needs truckload of buffs that actually matter. But his damage is not one of them.

    Grohk- 100 extra HPS on Spirit's Domain and that's it? You can't be serious Evil Mojo...

    This rework was a mistake.


  • PC

    @Dusklicious In my opinion damage dealer is the easiest role, flank role the hardest. Front-line and support would be tied in the middle. Damage doesnt need to think as much as the other roles... they usually have two babysitters while being decent 1 vs 1 and dont require more mechanics than flankers, I think they overrate their own role but its apparently the most popular so....


  • PC

    @ShogunPukin said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    @Dusklicious In my opinion damage dealer is the easiest role, flank role the hardest. Front-line and support would be tied in the middle. Damage doesnt need to think as much as the other roles... they usually have two babysitters while being decent 1 vs 1 and dont require more mechanics than flankers, I think they overrate their own role but its apparently the most popular so....

    In my opinion, it does sort of have a dependency on champion but generally speaking I would agree. Damage is pretty easy in comparison to the others, and flank just seems really hard. I would say support is slightly harder than tank mainly because support positioning seems to be a bit more difficult to learn. But I'm a tank main so that may be my own bias (though I did start out as a Pip/Grohk main for a few patches).

    Though some damages are significantly harder than others. Most meta damages are pretty easy along with a few others like Viktor and Tyra, while there are harder damages like Kinessa, Sha, Bomb King (people constantly underrate how difficult he is to play well), and Imani. Though generally speaking most damages are fairly easy.



  • @Dusklicious I dont know I can say that damage is the easiest role.

    Flank is the hardest due to the amount of time they have to maintain positions with no team assistance.

    Damage has allot of responsibilty, aka they have to zone flank routes, protect the healer, burst down shields, but they are around the main team so its more forgiving for mistakes. You need allot of game knowlege in order to prioritize the correct targets... Tunnel vision damge dealers are the worst.

    Healer is a thankless job and requres even more knowlege than flankers as everyone is trying to kill you. Flanks can leave the battle to heal up out of combat... Healers cannot do this or the entire team gets wiped. Healing the correct people and choosing who to let die and who to save is pretty complex task.

    Tanks are easy in concept, but avoiding damage and rotating your skill correctly is very hard to master. Tanks have the most impact on how a match is won or lost. Knowing the battle field and understanding when to move off point takes allot of play time to master... Seeing whats coming and understanding what to do impacts what everyone else is doing.

    • Flanks = highest map knowlege and pure mechaical skill

    • Damage = Highest zoning, and understanding rotation and point capture mexhanics

    • Healer = Highest poaitional play and overall knowlege of what all the champs do and how they match up team to team.

    • Frontline = highest surval skills and understanding where not only you are but where everyone on yout team is... As well as were every one on theneny teamnis. Its a possitional nightmare. I think in terms of mental difficulty frontlines are then hardest due to the amount of information they have to track out side thier own skills.



  • @ShogunPukin said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    @M3RC3N4RI0 jenos has the same priority than furia in diamond.

    But not the same winrate. With Luminate Jenos got a 50% winrate at Diamond. Since the average winrate at Diamond is 52% he is not even an average support.

    @Shadowpuppy said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    @M3RC3N4RI0 Jenos isna good healer but, he cannot help bad tanks

    I see, it's the tanks fault if the healer is shit. So he is in theory a good healer but since most tanks are bad he is not.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0

    jenos and furia right now are in similar position than inara and barik in season 2. inara had way less winrate in season 2 than barik and she was still always picked. Jenos loses the matchup because furia has way more heals and slightly less utility. Those two champs are ahead of every support in my opinion, half of my games are jenos vs furia. jenos not having a good matchup vs furia does make him an under average support.. or was inara a bad tank for having a poor winrate vs barik?

    Jenos isnt a good healer, he is a good support. No one can help a bad tank just like no one can help a bad support, flank or damage dealer, its just better to help the ones that are playing well in your team and let them carry or just ask help for yourself.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 Thats is not what i said, jenos doesnt have burst heals.... So if you suck and take crap tons of damage he cannot help you. If your a good tank that knows how to use cover, shields and movement to avoid damage you can do amazing with jenos.

    Some people, aka crappy tanks dont change a single thing about thier play when they have a jenos heal and then complain.... Jenos is sustain, the longer you can drag the battle out the more it does as he keeps the entire team up in a long battle while other burst healers can only keep up a couple people at a time...

    But if you run in and die in the first 10 seconds of a point fight that is not Jenos issue that is yours.



  • @ShogunPukin said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    or was inara a bad tank for having a poor winrate vs barik?

    Makes no sense in my eyes. If Io has a 56% winrate at Diamond she got this against Jenos and Furia who are almost always picked as support. That means she is better than Jenos. Same goes for other supports with higher winrate like Grover.

    @Shadowpuppy Yes, if I can bake my own tank (like we say in German) I can easily win with Jenos. But as a support I play with the tanks I get, not with a tank who perfectly matches my play style.


  • PC

    Note that Corvus isn't quite where I'd place him. I just took it from in-game and scaled it up to size, and then put it at the end of the Upper Mid tier (where he is, but surely not at the bottom).

    3.3 Final PTS Tier List.png

    A few things changed here.

    • Ash- This list is now going to be tiered as if the toggle did work, because I've read it wasn't supposed to work in PTS. Still kind of dumb that it doesn't. Nonetheless, I definitely see Ash as the best OT in the game after this change quite easily and it shouldn't be too difficult to see why.

    • Mal'Damba- I've seen an interesting bit from a few streams where Damba actually did some serious work. Who knows, he may be a top 3 support once again next patch. Io is a little past him in my mind, but yeah Damba looks to be number 3 on the list with Jenos' range nerf making him much less safe than before (he'll now pretty much be a low tier with a broken talent).

    • Corvus- Corvus IMHO looks like the strongest support next patch. Double marks is definitely looking like his meta build, and for good reason. Being able to heal 3 people at once for a pretty high amount nonetheless is quite useful especially in a double tank meta where you may want to mark your OT as well as a DPS and then heal your point during point fights. But it also gives you a lot of other potential healing options that turn him into a better Cherish Furia with a worse ult. If I had to place him relative to others, I'd say between Viv and Koga probably.

    • Imani- Now that I think about it she's a bit too high in the tier here. She shouldn't be too far from the original PTS list, maybe a little higher... Maybe just behind Vik. She has good damage, and her cooldowns will be a little more consistent with her buffs coming next patch. She should be pretty alright.

    • Talus and Makoa- I've tiered them up a bit because Lower Mid is starting to seem a little harsh for the two of them. Either of these two picks can work as well as a Tyra for you, they're just a little harder to do it with, Koa moreso than Talus.

    • Furia- Just play Corvus instead. For ranked, well, I guess there's Io and Damba. Jenos and Grover aren't far behind either. But please, don't pick Furia in ranked next patch. Flanks absolutely slaughter her in PTS state since they gutted Wrath. A bit backwards from Live Furia, yes, but pretty much the case.

    • Atlas- I'm starting to think he's probably a little higher on the list. Not too high because he still has his issues, but he's definitely looking better than Furia is. Pip is probably in the same boat with his damage builds in consideration. As for Atlas, he still needs a little bit more consistency on his cooldowns and maybe a little damage in his ultimate or something.

    This is, probably, final PTS-wise. Would post a cleaned-up version of this list, but I can only clean up half of what I need to anyways.



  • What exactly makes you think corvus will be best? He is literally Seris. Great heals, great sustain, great escape but bad damage and ult and literally 0 utility. Oh god she is so overpowered right!

    His only saving grace is that he heals through walls, which means he can sustain his flank with small heals and liferip indefinitely. But is that enough? Cmon guys, he's another healbot, and the only thing that can make him broken is that he will heal for too much compared to other healbots.



  • @TTraw I am thinking that the stun is going tonbe meta on corvious. Having an instant Damba Stun every 2.5 seconds that ia so easy to hit and can do 600 and can stun multiple people... Its pretty nuts.


  • PC

    @TTraw said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    What exactly makes you think corvus will be best? He is literally Seris. Great heals, great sustain, great escape but bad damage and ult and literally 0 utility. Oh god she is so overpowered right!

    His only saving grace is that he heals through walls, which means he can sustain his flank with small heals and liferip indefinitely. But is that enough? Cmon guys, he's another healbot, and the only thing that can make him broken is that he will heal for too much compared to other healbots.

    Sounds like you really don't know much about what you're talking about even considering it's just PTS... And the Seris comparison is very inaccurate almost laughably so. I mean how is 1k DPS bad damage? Even considering the number is misleading in the sense that he can't reliably pump it out past short range, he still pumps out much more damage most other healers do... I've seen Corvus in PTS get 130k heals and 60k damage in the same game more than once. Sounds nothing like a healbot to me. I mean if that's a healbot you might as well say that pretty much every other support it also... And another part is that you can cancel a few frames off of Corvus' heal animation by marking somebody or firing his pistol which makes him feel even less heal-bot-y. Though you could say that you're AFRAID of them giving him that treatment down the line like they did to Jenos, because they just might.

    Also, literally zero utility...? I had to laugh about that one because he actually has a decent amount of utility... The only support that ACTUALLY has zero utility is Ying... SHE has none. In fact, with Dark Gifts, his utility even considering the fact he's a support is pretty f***ing high. Though without it it's not too far below average for supports.

    His ult kind of sucks (but it's honestly better than it seems), but it's literally the only part of the character that could warrant buffing... The slow on it is a bit low, but if they buffed that they'd really need to nerf his damage because it's pretty much looking like the absolute best in the game when it comes to healers.

    He also has one huge thing also that Seris lacks... A decently high skill ceiling. His skill ceiling probably is nothing like Damba's is when he's actually good, but it's more than high enough if you can find a rhythm to maintain both healing and damage output, which I've already seen a few good streamers learn rather effectively.

    He really plays much closer to live Furia (with more consistent damage but at the cost of a lackluster ult) than Seris if played right. But even that comparison isn't quite right either.

    @Shadowpuppy I'm not seeing it. I see it maybe as an off-meta flank-y build some people might run. But I feel like Spreading Influence will probably be his meta talent and Dark Gifts might be used into certain team comps that benefit from the stat bonuses more.



  • @Dusklicious I can say that i did 110k damage in a 13 minute match and it couters the shit our of raum... He bought resilance 3 but it didnt matter... As it takes like 2 seconds to spin his gjn up. and i was stuning him over and over.



  • @Dusklicious said in Dusklicious' Tier List:

    Sounds like you really don't know much about what you're talking about even considering it's just PTS... And the Seris comparison is very inaccurate almost laughably so. I mean how is 1k DPS bad damage? Even considering the number is misleading in the sense that he can't reliably pump it out past short range, he still pumps out much more damage most other healers do... I've seen Corvus in PTS get 130k heals and 60k damage in the same game more than once. Sounds nothing like a healbot to me. I mean if that's a healbot you might as well say that pretty much every other support it also... And another part is that you can cancel a few frames off of Corvus' heal animation by marking somebody or firing his pistol which makes him feel even less heal-bot-y. Though you could say that you're AFRAID of them giving him that treatment down the line like they did to Jenos, because they just might.

    It's pretty common for me to get ~80k dmg with 130k heals on Seris, you know, "the healbot". Fun fact, Jenos DPS is 900, but spread and fallof makes it garbage, same with corvus. Another fun fact, Seris can murder squishy faster than bodyshot Corvus.

    Also, literally zero utility...? I had to laugh about that one because he actually has a decent amount of utility... The only support that ACTUALLY has zero utility is Ying... SHE has none. In fact, with Dark Gifts, his utility even considering the fact he's a support is pretty f***ing high. Though without it it's not too far below average for supports.

    You literally said 2mark is go-to. What utility does he bring with that talent? Slow on dagger you need to keep in pocket to escape? 15% movespeed card you shouldnt use? Where's utility that will set up kills for his allies?

    He also has one huge thing also that Seris lacks... A decently high skill ceiling. His skill ceiling probably is nothing like Damba's is when he's actually good, but it's more than high enough if you can find a rhythm to maintain both healing and damage output, which I've already seen a few good streamers learn rather effectively.

    • Autoaim heal
    • Almost infinite heal range
    • Heal through walls
    • Spray'n'pray gun
    • Get out of jail free card every 5s for your dumb positioning

    "High skill ceiling". Sure buddy.

    He really plays much closer to live Furia (with more consistent damage but at the cost of a lackluster ult) than Seris if played right. But even that comparison isn't quite right either.

    I never said he played like Seris. I said he brings exactly same things Seris does, only slightly better, and thus he is far from top tier.


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