Healers



  • @SNIper-poTAto said in Healers:

    You pretty much hard nerf resonance to trash.

    It's true. Anyways Shatter doesn't worth to use even with Focusing Lens, only with Resonance. I don't even use it with Resonance, just spam illusions between the enemies. I think this skill needs a buff, what could rebuff Resonance too. Remove its prefire time (the period before they start to move).



  • why did you downvote all of my posts, lol?
    Go back to Paladins and buy caut3 all the time, moron.


  • Moderator

    I'm going to lock this thread if you guys can't keep it civil.



  • @Peinzius There's no reasoning just stupid downvotes everywhere...


  • Moderator

    Reasoning or not, there's no excuse to call people morons.



  • @KicsitCsicska I understand that being forced to counter heals every game might be frustrating, but try to look at the other side: half of the champions can eliminate an opponent in under two seconds if they don't get healed, so healer aren't so common because they're particularly game-breaking but because they're literally necessary. You said it yourself, a team without an healer is screwed, but notice this: "a team without a healer loses" not "a team with a healer wins". This means that the problem isn't healers or that they're too strong, it's that something makes them required to have in any match and it's that something the real problem. If you get the point I'm trying to make, you'll see that nerfing healer isn't the right solution, it would only enforce having more healers in a team because they'd be even more necessary to sustain the insane amount of damage teammates recieve. Healers themselves aren't the root of the problem and I think that's why you struggle to find people agreeing with you on your proposal.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Healers:

    If you get the point I'm trying to make, you'll see that nerfing healer isn't the right solution, it would only enforce having more healers in a team because they'd be even more necessary to sustain the insane amount of damage teammates recieve.

    The damage could be healed by selfheal, if caut wasn't must pick and by out of combat heal, if it wasn't too weak solution. This is why veteran sucks too.

    Healers themselves aren't the root of the problem and I think that's why you struggle to find people agreeing with you on your proposal.

    All of my comments have been downvoted, even what isn't about healer nerf. (resonance buff) It has no connection. Someone just stupidly clicks downvote everywhere, coz he enjoys it. If I fed up, I just leave this forum after 4 years and keep my ideas to myself...



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    The damage could be healed by selfheal, if caut wasn't must pick and by out of combat heal, if it wasn't too weak solution. This is why veteran sucks too.

    But many champions have poor self heal, either because they have weak cards for it or they cannot benefit a lot from healing items, so in most fights they still need outside sustain because the damage would be enough to take them out even without cauterize. If Paladins had Health Packs or stuff like that yes, healers would be less necessary, but it doesn't. Out of combat heal on the other hand isn't really an option, since we're considering in-combat situations.



  • This line of thinking got us into this position in the first place. In Siege, tanks and supports will always be needed. This is the point of the game. You can't make cauterize into an item that you don't need. It's going to be picked up to counter healing, which is huge in this game. It's like trying to nerf damage because of how often Haven is bought. Or trying to nerf cauterize so rejuvenate isn't a must buy.

    I think the issue is not that cauterize is a must buy. I think that there are so many items and games for late game, buy not enough space. If you want to make different things viable, we'll need to be able to buy 5 items. Instead, they're trying to make items useless and something you shouldn't buy. Before, you were required to buy wrecker. Now that shields were nerfed and wrecker is useless, it's not even worth wasting a slot on it. If the problem with wrecker was that it was useless at 75% and oppressive at 225%. Wouldn't the logical thing be to buff the beginning percentage to 100%? Then nerf the scaling? Like 100/125/150 scaling. That way it's not underwhelming early game, but not overwhelming late game. You didn't need to change the whole shield thing, you just needed to change the value of wrecker. Instead of doing that, they changed everything.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere

    Out of combat heal could be a viable alternative possibly if it had half or one sec less time for get out of the combat and start to selfregenerate. It could make Veteran useful too. And it could make healers less important.

    Watch. 80% of credits are spent for counter supporters. Not for counter tanks. Or flankers or damage dealers.
    Even triple supporter team is viable. Could we tell the same thing about triple flanker or triple anything else class? No. Consider why.

    @HeartQueen said in Healers:

    In Siege, tanks and supports will always be needed.

    Every class are needed, but supporters needed much more. because the supporterless team is the weakest in the 3 class comps, and the double support comp is the meta. And most of the credits are spent for counter supporters.

    You can't make cauterize into an item that you don't need.

    But we could and should make Cauterize just as important as Life Rip, Wrecker and Blast shield. Make it viable against 2 or more main healer team or against talent like Formidabe and Bulk Up.

    It's going to be picked up to counter healing, which is huge in this game.

    Healing should be less total and more from other sources, like self heal (there are many trash selfhealer cards) and out of combat regen, what should be also buffed, and not effected by heal decreasing at all.

    It's like trying to nerf damage because of how often Haven is bought.

    Damage dealing is the main goal of shooter games, for get kills. It shouldn't be reuced. You can't even kill in the eraly game against a 3 healer team comp... This it the problem.

    Or trying to nerf cauterize so rejuvenate isn't a must buy.

    These has no clue to eachother. If reju helps more than other items you will buy it. caut doesn't decrease the reju bonus. These are subtracted, not multiplied.

    I think the issue is not that cauterize is a must buy.

    LOL, it is!!! You just have to buy the same thing all the time. It's not funy. It doesn't incite you to plan, and work on tactics, strategy, make an own play style. Being OP means you have to do it for increase your win rate. You will do it all the time. It is bad for a game. The games should be balanced: make equally strong possibles and let the player find out what works for him/her. This is why balance changes in each patches. This is why there are a balance section in the forum. Wellcome here.

    I think that there are so many items and games for late game, buy not enough space.

    It's an other topic. I've suggested to add 5th item slot anyways, but it has no clue to caut. Any amount of slots you add caut will be maxed out before them, and all of the others could come only in the late game. It's bad for the reasons above.

    You didn't need to change the whole shield thing, you just needed to change the value of wrecker. Instead of doing that, they changed everything.

    Both shields were too strong to deal with without wrecker, and wrecker was OP af. Nerfing both were the good step. Just like with healing/caut nerf. But the healing nerf wasn't enaugh, so supporters became OP.



  • In order to reduce the gap in power between caut 0-3, the min/max margins must be altered somehow.

    The difference between no caut (min) and max caut differs greatly, there is a vast gameplay and character performance difference when caut is maxed compared to when no one on the team is using it.

    Early game, Healing values when stacked together can act as brief damage mitigation, which in turn will force any form of anti healing mechanics to hinder it. The current ability to suppress healing with the mechanics provided are underwhelming early on as stronger anti heal abilities are not common, and item anti heal is feeble until it gets enough strength to work.

    Honestly I believe that the following few possible changes would be healthy for gameplay vs healing and sustain.

    • Weapon hits always provide base 20% anti heal for 1.5s.

    (Heal suppression with weapon attacks and the need for some form of momentary anti heal are a dominant gameplay mechanics. Everyone is going to have some from of self recovery attached to their base kit to extend ttk. Requiring the purchase of an item to provide anti heal power to compensate becomes too much when to go without it means dps is harshly countered by healing. Considering cauterise and combat sustain are big features they may as well be default in someway, combat sustain is, why not cauterise. Enforcing weapon heal suppression as a base game feature, not limited to a cauterise pick up would ensure that in some way caut is not a must pick up if the character can rely on other assets.)

    • Cauterise enhances weapon hit anti heal to 40/60/80%.

    (Initial threshold of 20% will stagger healing in combat, from there on cauterise will cut into healing with actual weight to hinder enemy dependence on it, instead of it being soft from the start and tough at the end. In theory, it will always be strong enough to puncture power healing at tier one, counter it at tier 3, and still have a little wiggle room for healing.)

    • More momentary and balanced anti heal pressure mechanisms tied to certain ability use on characters with poor primary attack cauterise potential.

    (With the concept of cauterise being a base option, characters whose weapons under perform as cauterise applicators should be compensated with anti heal tied to certain ability use. Therefore character heal suppression builds may not need to focus on the weapon per say, but more so the skill in cooldown management, tied to clever reset mechanics.)

    With caut as a base weapon effect, the initial requirement to take caut first round in order have a chance at fighting sustain healing is not as detrimental to the outcome of first round and HP sustain trades.



  • @AYYDIMITRI So caut is still must pick, and you suggest to buff it. You misunderstood something about the concept of balance.



  • @KicsitCsicska

    Balence is an matter of opinion, broadened by perspective.

    In my mind, cauterise needs a better tiered progession system for earlier ranks, while also having cauterise accessable as standard gameplay feature over just a standalone item, considering the impact it has in game.

    If you cannot dispute this concept with wisdom, or use words to broaden my perspective as to why this concept is unhealthy for gameplay, then just don't bother saying anything comrade...

    On average, you should not have access to full combat sustain while under fire, even with a channeling support constantly healing you, nor should the opposing player be forced to take cauterise in order to compensate for champs with powerful self healing and dive.

    The best way to do this is just make low 20% base level caut a part of every weapon attack, then influence it further with 400 credit value for 20% more anti heal per rank.

    With the first ranks of caut being 40 / 60. That roughy cuts healing in halfish. While 80% ensures target recives 1/5 of total party healing in a 5v5 game.



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    @SomeGuySomeWhere

    Watch. 80% of credits are spent for counter supporters. Not for counter tanks. Or flankers or damage dealers.

    Genuine question, I'm a little confused: what do you mean by this ? There's only Caut that counters support, how can people spend 80% of their credits just on it ?



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in Healers:

    Balence is an matter of opinion, broadened by perspective.

    Balance is objective. It isn't an art. Statistics and math can solve what is balanced.

    In my mind, cauterise needs a better tiered progession system for earlier ranks

    Still most of the players buy cauterize as their first item. Why would you buff it? it needs nerf for having normal pickrate.

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Healers:

    Genuine question, I'm a little confused: what do you mean by this ? There's only Caut that counters support, how can people spend 80% of their credits just on it ?

    I mean ppl by caut the most, so healers are the strongest enemies.
    Ppl have their credits. It is 100% of their own. They spend most of them to buy caut. This is how they can spend 80% of this. Tbh I don't understand what do you didn't get about this.



  • @KicsitCsicska
    I think it's time for people understand that the point of item shop is not to have an even pickrate on every single item. Why would it be? If you want to fight for even playstyle choices then complain about cards and talents - this is the kind of game mechanic designed to suit playstyles, not the item shop.

    Item shop is, in my eyes, there to change match dynamics as the game progresses against the most frustrating mechanics so that both sides get satisfaction of using said mechanic. Healing, CC, shields... do you not see a pattern? Those mechanics are all very fun to play with if they are very powerful, but being on receiving end is a nightmare on its own.

    Paladins' solution to this is that as the game progresses these abilities are way less powerful provided you use smart thinking and strategic choices. In my opinion this is kind of genius approach and part of me wishes that old game designers would come back to the game because lately EMojo's design choices are fairly questionable.

    The fact that certain item is picked more often than not does not matter. It just so happened that one of frustrating mechanics - healing, is so omnipresent in this game.

    But Cauterize was so powerful because it allowed healing to be absurdly high and thus amazing to feel without creating sustain metas. It also provided additional layer of gameplay with target prioritization. I mean, look at overwatch. You know how pitiful their healing feels? It doesnt feel great and yet stacking supports was so powerful that they enforced 2-2-2 lineup so that these cheese comps not happen again.

    As it currently stands, season 3 item changes were a huge mistake for me, done by newish developers that never understood the real item shop purpose, forced to make changes by underskilled people who didn't bother to overcome simple mechanics by using brain.

    For me as it currently stands, item shop does not fulfill it's purpose. Healing stacking is cancer, while not feeling as impactful as a healer, cc stacking is cancer, noone even uses bulldozeer reju and wrecker anymore. This is a huge mess and nerfing Caut once again just so every item has 1/16 chance to be picked is a terrible idea.

    I said it once and I say it again: Balance does not need to be even, it needs to be fun first and foremost. I don't want to see dredge as often as Inara. And nerfing items over and over seems to make me less wanting to play this video game because I am starting to lack any sort of counterplay to things that bother me. I have max resilience and cripple jenos + stun damba + grip khan makes me quit the game midmatch.

    I am not saying that old Item Shop was balanced perfectly, but the issues only arrived when item was so good that you didnt need to level it up more than once or twice (old Wrecker) or never picked in the first place (Veteran).

    After the changes there are more items that are no longer needed to pick despite the arising opportunity, abilities related to them dont feel good to use anymore, and match progress scaling is turned 180 degrees.

    How's that Caut suggestion going to adress that?...

    Besides, you mention how team can't win without Support, conveniently omitting the fact that the more needed the class is, the less carry potential it has. This is an obvious trade-off that needs to be taken into consideration before tucking up entire class meta again.



  • @TTraw Item shop is for customize your champion and make your OWN stlye. Not for buy the same counter item all the time. It is just braindead. You start your match, press i, move your cursor to the right-bottom corner and double click. Instead of consider with your team, against this team, with your champion and on this map. Just buy caut. It makes no sense for me.
    Supporters can not carry easily, but they can get the best kda with heal assists and their style is better for calm, thinking ppl, someone likes them. They shouldn't be better than any other classes in the game just because they can't carry.
    As for Cauterize I didn't suggest to nerf, but suggested to nerf ally heals.
    The other solution could be add 30% heal decreasing effect into the base kit, and nerf the sacling of Cauterize to 15% for the same caut3 value. It could also balance pick importance and early game, and could still incite healers to note who has caut effect on, and who is clear in their team.
    But I think nerf ally heals could be simplier, coz it doesn't touch the core mechanic of the game.



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    Tbh I don't understand what do you didn't get about this.

    You earn on average 4-5k credits in a normal match but Caut only costs 1.8k credits to max out, which is not even half of it. What I don't get is why you say that people have to spend 80% of their credits to counter healers, since Caut alone doesn't cost that amount.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere You gain 2-3k credits in average matches.



  • @KicsitCsicska You might be playing at a different level than me, because in the matches I get if you end with less than 3k credits either you performed poorly or your team got stomped. Try checking your match averages on PaladinsGuru.


Log in to reply