Healers



  • This line of thinking got us into this position in the first place. In Siege, tanks and supports will always be needed. This is the point of the game. You can't make cauterize into an item that you don't need. It's going to be picked up to counter healing, which is huge in this game. It's like trying to nerf damage because of how often Haven is bought. Or trying to nerf cauterize so rejuvenate isn't a must buy.

    I think the issue is not that cauterize is a must buy. I think that there are so many items and games for late game, buy not enough space. If you want to make different things viable, we'll need to be able to buy 5 items. Instead, they're trying to make items useless and something you shouldn't buy. Before, you were required to buy wrecker. Now that shields were nerfed and wrecker is useless, it's not even worth wasting a slot on it. If the problem with wrecker was that it was useless at 75% and oppressive at 225%. Wouldn't the logical thing be to buff the beginning percentage to 100%? Then nerf the scaling? Like 100/125/150 scaling. That way it's not underwhelming early game, but not overwhelming late game. You didn't need to change the whole shield thing, you just needed to change the value of wrecker. Instead of doing that, they changed everything.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere

    Out of combat heal could be a viable alternative possibly if it had half or one sec less time for get out of the combat and start to selfregenerate. It could make Veteran useful too. And it could make healers less important.

    Watch. 80% of credits are spent for counter supporters. Not for counter tanks. Or flankers or damage dealers.
    Even triple supporter team is viable. Could we tell the same thing about triple flanker or triple anything else class? No. Consider why.

    @HeartQueen said in Healers:

    In Siege, tanks and supports will always be needed.

    Every class are needed, but supporters needed much more. because the supporterless team is the weakest in the 3 class comps, and the double support comp is the meta. And most of the credits are spent for counter supporters.

    You can't make cauterize into an item that you don't need.

    But we could and should make Cauterize just as important as Life Rip, Wrecker and Blast shield. Make it viable against 2 or more main healer team or against talent like Formidabe and Bulk Up.

    It's going to be picked up to counter healing, which is huge in this game.

    Healing should be less total and more from other sources, like self heal (there are many trash selfhealer cards) and out of combat regen, what should be also buffed, and not effected by heal decreasing at all.

    It's like trying to nerf damage because of how often Haven is bought.

    Damage dealing is the main goal of shooter games, for get kills. It shouldn't be reuced. You can't even kill in the eraly game against a 3 healer team comp... This it the problem.

    Or trying to nerf cauterize so rejuvenate isn't a must buy.

    These has no clue to eachother. If reju helps more than other items you will buy it. caut doesn't decrease the reju bonus. These are subtracted, not multiplied.

    I think the issue is not that cauterize is a must buy.

    LOL, it is!!! You just have to buy the same thing all the time. It's not funy. It doesn't incite you to plan, and work on tactics, strategy, make an own play style. Being OP means you have to do it for increase your win rate. You will do it all the time. It is bad for a game. The games should be balanced: make equally strong possibles and let the player find out what works for him/her. This is why balance changes in each patches. This is why there are a balance section in the forum. Wellcome here.

    I think that there are so many items and games for late game, buy not enough space.

    It's an other topic. I've suggested to add 5th item slot anyways, but it has no clue to caut. Any amount of slots you add caut will be maxed out before them, and all of the others could come only in the late game. It's bad for the reasons above.

    You didn't need to change the whole shield thing, you just needed to change the value of wrecker. Instead of doing that, they changed everything.

    Both shields were too strong to deal with without wrecker, and wrecker was OP af. Nerfing both were the good step. Just like with healing/caut nerf. But the healing nerf wasn't enaugh, so supporters became OP.



  • In order to reduce the gap in power between caut 0-3, the min/max margins must be altered somehow.

    The difference between no caut (min) and max caut differs greatly, there is a vast gameplay and character performance difference when caut is maxed compared to when no one on the team is using it.

    Early game, Healing values when stacked together can act as brief damage mitigation, which in turn will force any form of anti healing mechanics to hinder it. The current ability to suppress healing with the mechanics provided are underwhelming early on as stronger anti heal abilities are not common, and item anti heal is feeble until it gets enough strength to work.

    Honestly I believe that the following few possible changes would be healthy for gameplay vs healing and sustain.

    • Weapon hits always provide base 20% anti heal for 1.5s.

    (Heal suppression with weapon attacks and the need for some form of momentary anti heal are a dominant gameplay mechanics. Everyone is going to have some from of self recovery attached to their base kit to extend ttk. Requiring the purchase of an item to provide anti heal power to compensate becomes too much when to go without it means dps is harshly countered by healing. Considering cauterise and combat sustain are big features they may as well be default in someway, combat sustain is, why not cauterise. Enforcing weapon heal suppression as a base game feature, not limited to a cauterise pick up would ensure that in some way caut is not a must pick up if the character can rely on other assets.)

    • Cauterise enhances weapon hit anti heal to 40/60/80%.

    (Initial threshold of 20% will stagger healing in combat, from there on cauterise will cut into healing with actual weight to hinder enemy dependence on it, instead of it being soft from the start and tough at the end. In theory, it will always be strong enough to puncture power healing at tier one, counter it at tier 3, and still have a little wiggle room for healing.)

    • More momentary and balanced anti heal pressure mechanisms tied to certain ability use on characters with poor primary attack cauterise potential.

    (With the concept of cauterise being a base option, characters whose weapons under perform as cauterise applicators should be compensated with anti heal tied to certain ability use. Therefore character heal suppression builds may not need to focus on the weapon per say, but more so the skill in cooldown management, tied to clever reset mechanics.)

    With caut as a base weapon effect, the initial requirement to take caut first round in order have a chance at fighting sustain healing is not as detrimental to the outcome of first round and HP sustain trades.



  • @AYYDIMITRI So caut is still must pick, and you suggest to buff it. You misunderstood something about the concept of balance.



  • @KicsitCsicska

    Balence is an matter of opinion, broadened by perspective.

    In my mind, cauterise needs a better tiered progession system for earlier ranks, while also having cauterise accessable as standard gameplay feature over just a standalone item, considering the impact it has in game.

    If you cannot dispute this concept with wisdom, or use words to broaden my perspective as to why this concept is unhealthy for gameplay, then just don't bother saying anything comrade...

    On average, you should not have access to full combat sustain while under fire, even with a channeling support constantly healing you, nor should the opposing player be forced to take cauterise in order to compensate for champs with powerful self healing and dive.

    The best way to do this is just make low 20% base level caut a part of every weapon attack, then influence it further with 400 credit value for 20% more anti heal per rank.

    With the first ranks of caut being 40 / 60. That roughy cuts healing in halfish. While 80% ensures target recives 1/5 of total party healing in a 5v5 game.



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    @SomeGuySomeWhere

    Watch. 80% of credits are spent for counter supporters. Not for counter tanks. Or flankers or damage dealers.

    Genuine question, I'm a little confused: what do you mean by this ? There's only Caut that counters support, how can people spend 80% of their credits just on it ?



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in Healers:

    Balence is an matter of opinion, broadened by perspective.

    Balance is objective. It isn't an art. Statistics and math can solve what is balanced.

    In my mind, cauterise needs a better tiered progession system for earlier ranks

    Still most of the players buy cauterize as their first item. Why would you buff it? it needs nerf for having normal pickrate.

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Healers:

    Genuine question, I'm a little confused: what do you mean by this ? There's only Caut that counters support, how can people spend 80% of their credits just on it ?

    I mean ppl by caut the most, so healers are the strongest enemies.
    Ppl have their credits. It is 100% of their own. They spend most of them to buy caut. This is how they can spend 80% of this. Tbh I don't understand what do you didn't get about this.



  • @KicsitCsicska
    I think it's time for people understand that the point of item shop is not to have an even pickrate on every single item. Why would it be? If you want to fight for even playstyle choices then complain about cards and talents - this is the kind of game mechanic designed to suit playstyles, not the item shop.

    Item shop is, in my eyes, there to change match dynamics as the game progresses against the most frustrating mechanics so that both sides get satisfaction of using said mechanic. Healing, CC, shields... do you not see a pattern? Those mechanics are all very fun to play with if they are very powerful, but being on receiving end is a nightmare on its own.

    Paladins' solution to this is that as the game progresses these abilities are way less powerful provided you use smart thinking and strategic choices. In my opinion this is kind of genius approach and part of me wishes that old game designers would come back to the game because lately EMojo's design choices are fairly questionable.

    The fact that certain item is picked more often than not does not matter. It just so happened that one of frustrating mechanics - healing, is so omnipresent in this game.

    But Cauterize was so powerful because it allowed healing to be absurdly high and thus amazing to feel without creating sustain metas. It also provided additional layer of gameplay with target prioritization. I mean, look at overwatch. You know how pitiful their healing feels? It doesnt feel great and yet stacking supports was so powerful that they enforced 2-2-2 lineup so that these cheese comps not happen again.

    As it currently stands, season 3 item changes were a huge mistake for me, done by newish developers that never understood the real item shop purpose, forced to make changes by underskilled people who didn't bother to overcome simple mechanics by using brain.

    For me as it currently stands, item shop does not fulfill it's purpose. Healing stacking is cancer, while not feeling as impactful as a healer, cc stacking is cancer, noone even uses bulldozeer reju and wrecker anymore. This is a huge mess and nerfing Caut once again just so every item has 1/16 chance to be picked is a terrible idea.

    I said it once and I say it again: Balance does not need to be even, it needs to be fun first and foremost. I don't want to see dredge as often as Inara. And nerfing items over and over seems to make me less wanting to play this video game because I am starting to lack any sort of counterplay to things that bother me. I have max resilience and cripple jenos + stun damba + grip khan makes me quit the game midmatch.

    I am not saying that old Item Shop was balanced perfectly, but the issues only arrived when item was so good that you didnt need to level it up more than once or twice (old Wrecker) or never picked in the first place (Veteran).

    After the changes there are more items that are no longer needed to pick despite the arising opportunity, abilities related to them dont feel good to use anymore, and match progress scaling is turned 180 degrees.

    How's that Caut suggestion going to adress that?...

    Besides, you mention how team can't win without Support, conveniently omitting the fact that the more needed the class is, the less carry potential it has. This is an obvious trade-off that needs to be taken into consideration before tucking up entire class meta again.



  • @TTraw Item shop is for customize your champion and make your OWN stlye. Not for buy the same counter item all the time. It is just braindead. You start your match, press i, move your cursor to the right-bottom corner and double click. Instead of consider with your team, against this team, with your champion and on this map. Just buy caut. It makes no sense for me.
    Supporters can not carry easily, but they can get the best kda with heal assists and their style is better for calm, thinking ppl, someone likes them. They shouldn't be better than any other classes in the game just because they can't carry.
    As for Cauterize I didn't suggest to nerf, but suggested to nerf ally heals.
    The other solution could be add 30% heal decreasing effect into the base kit, and nerf the sacling of Cauterize to 15% for the same caut3 value. It could also balance pick importance and early game, and could still incite healers to note who has caut effect on, and who is clear in their team.
    But I think nerf ally heals could be simplier, coz it doesn't touch the core mechanic of the game.



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    Tbh I don't understand what do you didn't get about this.

    You earn on average 4-5k credits in a normal match but Caut only costs 1.8k credits to max out, which is not even half of it. What I don't get is why you say that people have to spend 80% of their credits to counter healers, since Caut alone doesn't cost that amount.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere You gain 2-3k credits in average matches.



  • @KicsitCsicska You might be playing at a different level than me, because in the matches I get if you end with less than 3k credits either you performed poorly or your team got stomped. Try checking your match averages on PaladinsGuru.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere No, casuals are just quick usually. And ppl still max out caut much more often than everything else. Most of us sart with caut. I don't understand why do you defense it at all.

    Suggest to buff ally heals by 2400% (25 times stronger) and buff caut from 25% scaling to 33%. So the endgame will be the same with better heals and even more important caut, if you like it. I feel this is what everybody would like to see here.

    Wrecker was must pick, but it isn't already, coz shields and wrecker recived the optimal nerfs. Why don't do it with heals and caut?

    Ally heals are just too strong, this is why caut is always here. And playing against something OP forces us to buy the same counter item all the time. It's not funy at all. My original suggeston could make it better. Why don't you like it?



  • @KicsitCsicska

    I get what you're saying, but here's the thing. Wrecker used to be a needed item. People complained that wrecker 1 sucked ass, and wrecker 3 was oppressive. Instead of balancing the item, they brought shielding down and made wrecker not mandatory. You're about to do the same thing with cauterize, which isn't the best thing to do. Also, 2 tanks or even triple tanks was actually meta. There was a time where a team with a support and no tank lost against a triple tank or 5 tank composition because even supports couldn't keep up with their massive self sustain come late game. They NERFED the tanks, and now you literally only need 1.

    Cauterize needs a buff to be honest. It was okay during the 90% max time when healing kept up. The thing that needed to be balanced were the shields because late game, they couldn't drop cauterize due to a Vivian deleting it in less than one second. No joke, when I was playing Barik against a max wrecker Vivian and Strix one game, my main shield was gone instantly. I think it was balanced during the later part of season 2. Wrecker was just as important, flanks got nimble and master riding, etc. The problem is that they keep nerfing those items. Bulldozer is a joke and so is wrecker. Nimble is one of many mobility nerfs. Blast shield would be important, but blasters suck ass lowkey except for Bomb King. Cauterize lowkey sucks as well, but at this point the game would suck more without it.

    I agree with the healing should be less total. Healing was brought down at the beginning to match the cauterize nerfs, but they brought it back up. Io heals the same from her bow that she did before the cauterize nerfs. Most people did not want her to get buffed back to 1,000 healing per second (150 every .15), they wanted 900 every second (135 per .15), which was up from 833 per second. Though I hate what the mentality caused. People thought cauterize was too oppressive, so they brought it down. Healing values were brought down, and then raised back up. Now healing is too oppressive. Once you bring healing down, people might start complaining about cauterize again.

    I agree about this trash sustain meta. You can't really punch through it. Blasters like Willo, Drogoz, Dredge, and Bomb King are getting nerfed, or got nerfed. So you literally have to rely on Viktor, Vivian, and Kinessa as the hitscans to punch through the sustain. It's funny how people nerfed blasters for having too much damage, and now when their damage matters the most, they're out of the meta. Funny how it works. Though my point isn't about damage being too oppressive. It's about how people think that because people are buying haven and blast shields a lot, that means that damage should be nerfed. That's literally how the game is supposed to be though. You're supposed to buy items to counter the enemy team. Blast shields to counter Willo, and Haven to counter Kinessa. If you try to nerf their damage because those items are bought too much, then you'll throw things out of wack.

    You have to buy the same times all the time because the other items suck. Before you had a list of must buy items for most games: cauterize, blast shields/haven, nimble, master riding, bulldozer, wrecker, resilience, morale boost, chronos, rejuvenate, and kill to heal. Now, the only must buy items are: master riding, chronos, morale boost, resilience, haven/blast shields, and cauterize. You keep seeing the same items because other items were nerfed. It's like seeing the same champions in this meta because they nerfed like 20 champions in a single patch practically. No wonder we keep seeing: Buck, Vivian, Viktor, Bomb King, Corvus, Io, Inara, Ash, Khan, etc. Those are the only meta champions at this point. The thing isn't to nerf healing and cauterize. Then we'll literally only be seeing: resilience, morale boost, chronos, and haven/blast shields.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Healers:

    @KicsitCsicska You might be playing at a different level than me, because in the matches I get if you end with less than 3k credits either you performed poorly or your team got stomped. Try checking your match averages on PaladinsGuru.

    He isn't saying people are only buying cauterize or items to counter supports. He's saying that in a decent elo lobby, cauterize is in every game. This is the only item that is literally in almost every match.

    Though I agree with @TTraw here. All items aren't equal. If you nerf cauterize and make is useless, then people will be complaining about chronos, morale boost, and resilience being in every match. Some items are objectively better than others. This is just a fact. If you nerf cauterize to where no one buys it, you'll only be complaining about the next item being in every game.



  • "Balance is objective. It isn't an art. Statistics and math can solve what is balanced."

    Take heed to your own advice, understanding of game/battle math is key to evolution of this game. Staring at statistics without solid understanding of 'why its like that' will get you nowhere if you are not picking up everything that influence the meta and design.
    If you think Balance is math, walk a tight rope, there is an art to understanding and mitigating every influence in an environment you try to control.

    "Still, most of the players buy cauterise as their first item. Why would you buff it? it needs nerf for having normal pickrate."

    I edited my inital post to provide more explanation.
    But really.... "a normal first pick rate"... is your reason for a nerf...?
    You oft play heal bot support playstyles. You can understand that you can use healing for recovery or damage resistance (with DR diminishing under caut influence).
    You realise some of this sucks to play against when healing is stacked, the tank and flank have a decaut window, and everything works in perfect synergy, adding some greater form of brawl sustain via a max caut nerf is a nice touch, but lower ranks atm I find too weak to hinder mass sustain, and its foolish to go to battle without caut as a foe can gain regen for up to half their HP in a near instant and sponge damage for enough time to out trade your dps.

    A 5% max value buff is not a big buff, and honestly considering how important caut is, its one hostility item that could have a higher max price per rank.

    The scaling between 20/40/60/80 are smaller power gaps, cutting healing by 1 - 4/5 ratios rather then 1 - 3/4 ratios, so while the general state of caut at base and all ranks is stronger, the impact difference between each rank is smaller by 5%, creating less of a void between min and max.

    From my point of view, a 20% base min anti heal value on weapon attacks will make is less mandatory to take caut first off, allowing players to always suppress a target under healing now... focused healing, ranged heals, self recovery, larger healing areas... greater influence from healing in general are common in the game that no player should be without some form of recover or heal/trade time suppression dynamic, esp if healing is a base self heal ability.



  • @HeartQueen said in Healers:

    Cauterize needs a buff to be honest.

    Cauzerize is the most bought item in the early game. It doesn't need a buff. Heal decreasing needs a buff or ally heals.

    a: Add heal decreasing effect into base kit
    b: Nerf ally heals <- this is what I suggested



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    Cauterize

    Half the healing values of all healers.
    Heals on the point or the cart circle or doubled

    Increase support damage across the board
    Remove all healing talents
    Balance healers to be effective at base with no ability to boost the healing values.


Log in to reply