Healers



  • Hi!

    It's an old topic. Ppl just accepted this game totaly relies on heal management. Healers are still must picks, coz they are OP, and caut needed against them in every amount. Just take a look on the 3 class comps:

    -Team without DD: Not the best, but a but many champions can substitute them.
    -Team without flanker: Can be solved with a grouped them and area heal. It isn't a problem on some maps, like Ice Mines.
    -Team without frontliner. You won't win, at least you can gain a good kda.
    -Team without healer: GG

    I think Cauterize is in the right position finally. The problem is that huge ally heals makes it obligatory. If these were nerfed, both healers and caut would be finally balanced.

    My suggestons for nerf ally heals are:

    Corvus: Nerf the burst heal 800 -> 700, and nerf Spreading Influesnce: also halve the bonuses for allies from his cards.
    Crushing Expectations: 3% -> 4%
    Grand Design: 5% -> 6%

    Furia: Nerf the burst heal 1000 -> 800

    Ghrok: Do not add the Radian Star bonuses what could buff the heal of healer Ghrok, but buff his healer thalents indirectly:
    Buff his HP 2200 -> 2500, nerf Maelstorm: Do not increase bounces anymore.
    It would bring back the old tanky Ghrok what we loved.

    Grover: Nerf the burst heal 800 -> 600

    Io: Renerf the tick heal: 150 -> 125

    Jenos: Decrease the heal per sec: 180 -> 140
    Put Luminary into his base kit with just 10% damage bonus (coz this talent doesn't change his playstyle at all. And add a new talent: Continuum: Increase your Ultimate charge rate by 60%.

    Mal'Damba: Spirits Chosen: 200 heal, Mending Spirits: 280 heal/s, Gourd: 55 heal/s.
    But buff the dmg of the reload attack 200 -> 400 and rework Snake Pit card for increase the stun duration by 0.1s/lvl for make stun damba viable again, even against the Resillance buff.

    Pip: Healer Pip sucks, he doesn't need any nerfs.

    Seris: Increase the heal cd back to 2s.

    Ying: Life Echange: 700 -> 600, Carry On: 1s/lvl -> 0.5s/lvl, Spring Bloom: 0.5s/lvl -> 0.3s/lvl.
    Ying's base heal isn't OP, just her talent and obligatory cards make it.



  • Supports would still be must picks after those nerfs.


  • PC

    Honestly, supports have always been and likely will always be must picks. They were when Caut was broken (still kind of is a must pick, but it's not because it's necessarily broken), and I don't see why they wouldn't be now that it isn't.

    I will say there are a few supports that need nerfs right now, but honestly most of them are fine as is healing-wise IMHO. Definitely Furia/Io/Grover are going to need a nerf or two, but the rest are fine as is, some are even still in need of buffs (Pip/Grohk in particular).

    Part of the issue with why supports are necessary is because of the fact no other characters can adequately heal a team. Khan has a heal in his kit, Raum has Subservience, Moji has Toot, and Torvald has his Winddancer card. But none of the aforementioned are remotely enough to function as a healer. However, I will not say we need a tank (probably the easiest role to fit a partial support kit into) that can also function as a healer.

    I say not because A. that would further encourage double tank, which still is meta and B. because that tank is guaranteed to outdo actual supports, due to their sustain. And also C because that hypothetical character would likely end up being more boring than Inara to play.

    I think at least 1 healer is unavoidable for meta comps, but when it starts getting to two or even three in every match, that's a problem. A few healers are a little overtuned, yes, but I honestly don't see a problem with teams needing supports to function. Not only because they offer sustain to the rest of the team and have useful utility, but because, in all actuality, what you talk about role-wise is only correct in a casual setting.

    Competitively, pairing Damage with Flank, every role is necessary. At least 2 Flank/Damage, preferably 2 tanks, and preferably 1 or maybe 2 supports if one can flank/damage (Pip/Grohk/Seris/Ying). Of course counting flank and damage as seperate roles, you don't necessarily need either though generally speaking a comp should have at least 1 damage champion. Though some flanks in certain comps/maps can function as damage dealers (Androxus/Talus are probably the best examples). Flanks, depend on map. Sometimes you don't really need one in a comp on maps like Frog Isle where they generally struggle. If not you can just run a more mobile damage that can pick off enemies in their stead (Cassie/Tiberius are probably the best examples). At least this is how it is in Diamond ELO ranked from my experiences on PC playing on NA servers.



  • @Dusklicious said in Healers:

    but the rest are fine as is

    You need caut against the reast of them too. You need caut against Damba, Seris, Furia, Corvus. All of their heals should be nerfed.



  • @KicsitCsicska I don't like the ying nerfs at all. You pretty much hard nerf resonance to trash. Spring bloom is the best card for resonance and allows her to deal way more dmg and heal more. You suggested nothing to compensate Resonance. Ying needs more of a rework imo to help her restore her damage support identity. Here's what i'd like to see with your ying changes.

    • Add a 2s cooldown reduction to Ying's illusions for her Resonance
      talent specifically(1s is enough but i'd love to get a feel of the clone spam with a 2s CD reduction).
    • Move the effect of Rewind lvl 1 into the base kit.
    • Rework Rewind to: reduce the postfire of Dimensional Link by 16/32/48/64/80%(Current postfire is 0.5s and the card will reduce it by 0.08s per level allowing you to teleport faster which she used to be able to do in her base kit).
    • Rework Mesmerism to instead grant you 1 ammo per level when illusions die to an enemy.
    • Rework Disappear to instead grant Ying 5% increased ult charge rate per level.
      Reasoning for most changes-
      *2s CD reduction is to compensate your spring bloom nerf.
      *The rewind rework will bring back a part of what made Resonance viable as but more balanced as a card, since Reso-Ying has to sacrifice either one of her most important cards like self sustain with Harmony/Tangible, The spring forward card that allowed her to apply huge clone dmg combos. This new card will also make high levels of Efficiency viable as she will then be able to access her F ability much faster for the combos.
      *Ying's dmg talents as solo support playstyles were significantly impacted by the nerf to morale boost. This card will remedy that and anyway the current version is just useless.


  • @SNIper-poTAto said in Healers:

    You pretty much hard nerf resonance to trash.

    It's true. Anyways Shatter doesn't worth to use even with Focusing Lens, only with Resonance. I don't even use it with Resonance, just spam illusions between the enemies. I think this skill needs a buff, what could rebuff Resonance too. Remove its prefire time (the period before they start to move).



  • why did you downvote all of my posts, lol?
    Go back to Paladins and buy caut3 all the time, moron.


  • Moderator

    I'm going to lock this thread if you guys can't keep it civil.



  • @Peinzius There's no reasoning just stupid downvotes everywhere...


  • Moderator

    Reasoning or not, there's no excuse to call people morons.



  • @KicsitCsicska I understand that being forced to counter heals every game might be frustrating, but try to look at the other side: half of the champions can eliminate an opponent in under two seconds if they don't get healed, so healer aren't so common because they're particularly game-breaking but because they're literally necessary. You said it yourself, a team without an healer is screwed, but notice this: "a team without a healer loses" not "a team with a healer wins". This means that the problem isn't healers or that they're too strong, it's that something makes them required to have in any match and it's that something the real problem. If you get the point I'm trying to make, you'll see that nerfing healer isn't the right solution, it would only enforce having more healers in a team because they'd be even more necessary to sustain the insane amount of damage teammates recieve. Healers themselves aren't the root of the problem and I think that's why you struggle to find people agreeing with you on your proposal.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Healers:

    If you get the point I'm trying to make, you'll see that nerfing healer isn't the right solution, it would only enforce having more healers in a team because they'd be even more necessary to sustain the insane amount of damage teammates recieve.

    The damage could be healed by selfheal, if caut wasn't must pick and by out of combat heal, if it wasn't too weak solution. This is why veteran sucks too.

    Healers themselves aren't the root of the problem and I think that's why you struggle to find people agreeing with you on your proposal.

    All of my comments have been downvoted, even what isn't about healer nerf. (resonance buff) It has no connection. Someone just stupidly clicks downvote everywhere, coz he enjoys it. If I fed up, I just leave this forum after 4 years and keep my ideas to myself...



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    The damage could be healed by selfheal, if caut wasn't must pick and by out of combat heal, if it wasn't too weak solution. This is why veteran sucks too.

    But many champions have poor self heal, either because they have weak cards for it or they cannot benefit a lot from healing items, so in most fights they still need outside sustain because the damage would be enough to take them out even without cauterize. If Paladins had Health Packs or stuff like that yes, healers would be less necessary, but it doesn't. Out of combat heal on the other hand isn't really an option, since we're considering in-combat situations.



  • This line of thinking got us into this position in the first place. In Siege, tanks and supports will always be needed. This is the point of the game. You can't make cauterize into an item that you don't need. It's going to be picked up to counter healing, which is huge in this game. It's like trying to nerf damage because of how often Haven is bought. Or trying to nerf cauterize so rejuvenate isn't a must buy.

    I think the issue is not that cauterize is a must buy. I think that there are so many items and games for late game, buy not enough space. If you want to make different things viable, we'll need to be able to buy 5 items. Instead, they're trying to make items useless and something you shouldn't buy. Before, you were required to buy wrecker. Now that shields were nerfed and wrecker is useless, it's not even worth wasting a slot on it. If the problem with wrecker was that it was useless at 75% and oppressive at 225%. Wouldn't the logical thing be to buff the beginning percentage to 100%? Then nerf the scaling? Like 100/125/150 scaling. That way it's not underwhelming early game, but not overwhelming late game. You didn't need to change the whole shield thing, you just needed to change the value of wrecker. Instead of doing that, they changed everything.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere

    Out of combat heal could be a viable alternative possibly if it had half or one sec less time for get out of the combat and start to selfregenerate. It could make Veteran useful too. And it could make healers less important.

    Watch. 80% of credits are spent for counter supporters. Not for counter tanks. Or flankers or damage dealers.
    Even triple supporter team is viable. Could we tell the same thing about triple flanker or triple anything else class? No. Consider why.

    @HeartQueen said in Healers:

    In Siege, tanks and supports will always be needed.

    Every class are needed, but supporters needed much more. because the supporterless team is the weakest in the 3 class comps, and the double support comp is the meta. And most of the credits are spent for counter supporters.

    You can't make cauterize into an item that you don't need.

    But we could and should make Cauterize just as important as Life Rip, Wrecker and Blast shield. Make it viable against 2 or more main healer team or against talent like Formidabe and Bulk Up.

    It's going to be picked up to counter healing, which is huge in this game.

    Healing should be less total and more from other sources, like self heal (there are many trash selfhealer cards) and out of combat regen, what should be also buffed, and not effected by heal decreasing at all.

    It's like trying to nerf damage because of how often Haven is bought.

    Damage dealing is the main goal of shooter games, for get kills. It shouldn't be reuced. You can't even kill in the eraly game against a 3 healer team comp... This it the problem.

    Or trying to nerf cauterize so rejuvenate isn't a must buy.

    These has no clue to eachother. If reju helps more than other items you will buy it. caut doesn't decrease the reju bonus. These are subtracted, not multiplied.

    I think the issue is not that cauterize is a must buy.

    LOL, it is!!! You just have to buy the same thing all the time. It's not funy. It doesn't incite you to plan, and work on tactics, strategy, make an own play style. Being OP means you have to do it for increase your win rate. You will do it all the time. It is bad for a game. The games should be balanced: make equally strong possibles and let the player find out what works for him/her. This is why balance changes in each patches. This is why there are a balance section in the forum. Wellcome here.

    I think that there are so many items and games for late game, buy not enough space.

    It's an other topic. I've suggested to add 5th item slot anyways, but it has no clue to caut. Any amount of slots you add caut will be maxed out before them, and all of the others could come only in the late game. It's bad for the reasons above.

    You didn't need to change the whole shield thing, you just needed to change the value of wrecker. Instead of doing that, they changed everything.

    Both shields were too strong to deal with without wrecker, and wrecker was OP af. Nerfing both were the good step. Just like with healing/caut nerf. But the healing nerf wasn't enaugh, so supporters became OP.



  • In order to reduce the gap in power between caut 0-3, the min/max margins must be altered somehow.

    The difference between no caut (min) and max caut differs greatly, there is a vast gameplay and character performance difference when caut is maxed compared to when no one on the team is using it.

    Early game, Healing values when stacked together can act as brief damage mitigation, which in turn will force any form of anti healing mechanics to hinder it. The current ability to suppress healing with the mechanics provided are underwhelming early on as stronger anti heal abilities are not common, and item anti heal is feeble until it gets enough strength to work.

    Honestly I believe that the following few possible changes would be healthy for gameplay vs healing and sustain.

    • Weapon hits always provide base 20% anti heal for 1.5s.

    (Heal suppression with weapon attacks and the need for some form of momentary anti heal are a dominant gameplay mechanics. Everyone is going to have some from of self recovery attached to their base kit to extend ttk. Requiring the purchase of an item to provide anti heal power to compensate becomes too much when to go without it means dps is harshly countered by healing. Considering cauterise and combat sustain are big features they may as well be default in someway, combat sustain is, why not cauterise. Enforcing weapon heal suppression as a base game feature, not limited to a cauterise pick up would ensure that in some way caut is not a must pick up if the character can rely on other assets.)

    • Cauterise enhances weapon hit anti heal to 40/60/80%.

    (Initial threshold of 20% will stagger healing in combat, from there on cauterise will cut into healing with actual weight to hinder enemy dependence on it, instead of it being soft from the start and tough at the end. In theory, it will always be strong enough to puncture power healing at tier one, counter it at tier 3, and still have a little wiggle room for healing.)

    • More momentary and balanced anti heal pressure mechanisms tied to certain ability use on characters with poor primary attack cauterise potential.

    (With the concept of cauterise being a base option, characters whose weapons under perform as cauterise applicators should be compensated with anti heal tied to certain ability use. Therefore character heal suppression builds may not need to focus on the weapon per say, but more so the skill in cooldown management, tied to clever reset mechanics.)

    With caut as a base weapon effect, the initial requirement to take caut first round in order have a chance at fighting sustain healing is not as detrimental to the outcome of first round and HP sustain trades.



  • @AYYDIMITRI So caut is still must pick, and you suggest to buff it. You misunderstood something about the concept of balance.



  • @KicsitCsicska

    Balence is an matter of opinion, broadened by perspective.

    In my mind, cauterise needs a better tiered progession system for earlier ranks, while also having cauterise accessable as standard gameplay feature over just a standalone item, considering the impact it has in game.

    If you cannot dispute this concept with wisdom, or use words to broaden my perspective as to why this concept is unhealthy for gameplay, then just don't bother saying anything comrade...

    On average, you should not have access to full combat sustain while under fire, even with a channeling support constantly healing you, nor should the opposing player be forced to take cauterise in order to compensate for champs with powerful self healing and dive.

    The best way to do this is just make low 20% base level caut a part of every weapon attack, then influence it further with 400 credit value for 20% more anti heal per rank.

    With the first ranks of caut being 40 / 60. That roughy cuts healing in halfish. While 80% ensures target recives 1/5 of total party healing in a 5v5 game.



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Healers:

    @SomeGuySomeWhere

    Watch. 80% of credits are spent for counter supporters. Not for counter tanks. Or flankers or damage dealers.

    Genuine question, I'm a little confused: what do you mean by this ? There's only Caut that counters support, how can people spend 80% of their credits just on it ?



  • @AYYDIMITRI said in Healers:

    Balence is an matter of opinion, broadened by perspective.

    Balance is objective. It isn't an art. Statistics and math can solve what is balanced.

    In my mind, cauterise needs a better tiered progession system for earlier ranks

    Still most of the players buy cauterize as their first item. Why would you buff it? it needs nerf for having normal pickrate.

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Healers:

    Genuine question, I'm a little confused: what do you mean by this ? There's only Caut that counters support, how can people spend 80% of their credits just on it ?

    I mean ppl by caut the most, so healers are the strongest enemies.
    Ppl have their credits. It is 100% of their own. They spend most of them to buy caut. This is how they can spend 80% of this. Tbh I don't understand what do you didn't get about this.


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