Tank Main's Speculative 3.4 Tier List.

  • PC

    @JCrocodile said in Tank Main's Speculative 3.4 Tier List.:

    What is pocket meta? I kinda just understand that a bunch of hitscan champs are really good and you wanna run two supports. Is the pocket part the Jenos/Corvus marks?

    Speaking of duo support meta, running an off-tank would be off-meta right? There’s 5 slots and you wanna have 2 support, flank, damage, and a main frontline right? That’s how I’ve understood team composition in this meta so I’m always confused why Ash and Raum are often ranked highly amongst players but the community also says you should only play Inara, Terminus, or in a friendlier meta, Barik. Could you tell me about that?

    Yep. Also Io fits into this meta as well as she can pocket somebody with her right click and give them DR with it while leaving Luna on point.

    I think right now the game's in a meta where both double tank and double healer are acceptable choices. With double healer of course, the problem is that only two maybe three tanks can solo being Inara/Term/maybe Nando. So pretty much every other tank isn't really worth using with the comp. However, I think double tank is still more common in competitive and ranked play which is why tanks like Ash/Raum (as well as Ruckus and Atlas at high level) are still good.

    Nonetheless, this meta is pretty much defined by just how broken Corvus' marks are and how good certain hitscans are. 25% free lifesteal, 12% free movement speed, and the equivalent to a free heal every 4s or so with about the value of a third of a Furia heal on TWO people at ONCE. Barik's specific problem with this meta that even I as somebody who mains him will acknowledge is that he can't really deal with most of the DPSes who benefit most. Viktor and Vivian in particular can give Barik a pretty hard time... Of course there's another factor at play why most comp players actually think Barik is bad right now, being that he hasn't been properly rediscovered yet.

  • @Dusklicious
    I also main Barik, he has such a great combination of offense and defense in his range. Of course, the meta dps don’t play in that range. Are we supposed to use his talent that buffs his shield? I heard Barik’s been through the grinder, and it seems like right now everyone runs Architectonics.

    What’s your take on the Fernando main tank debate? Personally, I’m divided but I’d like to make him work for the sake of variety.

  • @JCrocodile

    Fernando is only as good as whatever force backs him up in a push whereas dwarf is ideal at setting up cover over a wider area.

    Dwarf holds fortress.
    Fern is point man / guardian.

    Fern is better suited to multi foe close quarters combat (CQC), with the primary fire foe piercing ability to damage multiple targets at once as well as stack punish and bruise foes with fireball.

    If the player is good at going toe to toe with many foes and able to mitigate damage to thyself and allies with wisdom, Fernando can work in most games when that pinch of direct firepower and sustained pressure are needed. Fern has solid personal endurance with his mobility and shield synergy as the ult is handy at eating abilities that are designed to end you.

    The players use of controllable shield to prevent damage is key to understanding what one can achieve with a shield. Compared to bariks shield which is better for team firepower and duelling foes. Ferns shield is "in your face, preventing you from shooting" and works when rushing a foe as a team.

    Best Fernando will use a shield in a firefight as an asset to waste a foes time and position, not just personal or ally defence.
    Just because you are not attacking does not mean you cannot hinder the offensive ability of the enemy.

    That all said...
    I am not exactly thrilled with Fernando's performance, and I am not saying he is the strongest, but for firepower, protection and mobility, Fern and Barik hold the line well enough.

    However my gripes with Fern are small, mainly due to the damage/healing indifference of other champions in contrast to his low dps.
    I would like to see his fireball apply a store weapon item effects as he has pretty poor utility damage vs barriers, deployables and such, what is the point of a low damage ranged attack if the second it lands its mitigated by enough life rip...

    My other issue is that I am not truly satisfied by his recovery design requiring a support to stay fed when his ambient recovery could be better...

  • PC

    @JCrocodile said in Tank Main's Speculative 3.4 Tier List.:

    Are we supposed to use his talent that buffs his shield?

    I heard Barik’s been through the grinder.

    It seems like right now everyone runs Architectonics.

    What’s your take on the Fernando main tank debate? Personally, I’m divided but I’d like to make him work for the sake of variety.

    It's viable now and not a complete joke anymore, but it still has issues with the shield cards being weak. Foundation is still almost completely useless, Bunker has too low of scaling, and Palisade has too low of scaling... I think that to be actually good at least Bunker and Palisade will need scaling buffs.

    I'd say right now he's not in his strongest state but he's not necessarily bad I think at least. At the moment he just doesn't sustain as well as Term/Inara point and doesn't have the same bullying potential Ash/Raum have off. I still think however he's middle of the pack when it comes to FL characters because he can capably play both roles, though granted I've played over 1600 Barik matches and have a 58% WR and a KDA of almost 3 (Guru way of counting) with him. He has some of the best damage output in the entire class and his mobility is still really solid. However burst sustain is and always has been an issue with him, though somehow now it's supposed to be such a major issue. I've probably played around 500-600 games with him this season and don't notice all that much of a difference aside from Double Time not being absolutely obscenely broken, like it was the patch after it got reworked.

    I always run Architectonics, but I even ran Archi in Season 2 when Tinkerin was meta (still would run Tinkerin then but mainly ran Archi). Right now it's probably his best talent of the three options he has. But you still have to run the right cards and still utilize the character's strengths. Which a lot of people seem to do neither. I have never once seen anyone run the exactly right card setup and I rarely ever see anyone playing the character in a way that doesn't look like they're account level 25 and playing their first tank.

    My take on Nando's current state is that he's becoming a shield-oriented, slightly more offensive Inara. He has a lot of sustain but lacks mobility and damage, with the latter being among the worst in the class. I don't particularly like the direction they took, but I mean if they wanted Nando to be viable, mission accomplished. He is viable right now, just not particularly good. His strengths are outdone by Inara and Term, and his weaknesses are palpable enough to keep him from being much better. And unlike Atlas and especially Ruckus he doesn't improve based on skill level. Atlas is the fourth best tank right now if you can make him work, and some comp players say Ruckus is the best OT even over Ash (which in my mind opens up their hypocrisy when it comes to Barik "not having enough sustain"). But Nando in his current state doesn't scale with skill level very well at all, and unlike Inara who's just easy to make sustain until the end of time, it's an issue that matters. Nando just has to get Khan grabbed, Shoulder Bashed, Raum ulted and he's kind of screwed. That's another issue with Nando. He's countered by half of the viable OTs. Even if the OTs shouldn't usually be focusing on point tanks like Nando, if they can get a hold of him, half of the ones that are viable can just bully him with few issues. But his sustain is not too far from being as good as Term's and that keeps him working.

  • PC

    Tank Tier List published in 2 Parts:



    (After the second video there is an invite link for my Discord, if you want to succumb to my shameless self-promotion)

  • @Dusklicious Despite the Corvus hype Io is still the best support. Io did 15000 games with goddess blessing on Diamond and won 59% of them. Corvus did even 30000 games with spreading influence but won only 52% of them. I agree that Corvus is the better Jenos since Corvus can buff flanks like Jenos but he can also heal tanks what Jenos cannot. But Io can heal 8K HP in 8 seconds, and Io has Luna. A better heal than Seris plus 15% DR and a small tank pet that can take points and push carts. 25% Liferip for flanks can't compete with this. There is only one god of healing - and it's not Corvus.😈

    Torv's is situational, yes, he is simply not played on some maps, but this goes also for Strix, who is not S-tier on Brightmarsh. Torv is just very unpopular but his winrates are excellent, he is far from D-tier.

    Willo underrated as usual. Ash as the best off-tank I'd see at S-tier.

    Funfact. Fernando Diamond winrates: Formidable 55%. Scorch 54%. Aegis 48% (ouch).

  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Tank Main's Speculative 3.4 Tier List.:

    On console, Torvald has a 66% winrate at master elo. I'm not joking. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12TrxqtZbp2G_7p0vJYPOZvpSbCxNHFIFL_d767BTF9g/edit#gid=1540743675

    They just need to rework him. He is part of everything wrong with this meta. It's literally a meta where you pocket the dps and hope they're good enough to carry.

  • @HeartQueen The problem with Master statistics are the low numbers. I'd say you need more than 1000 games for a viable statistic. Or you may have a pro-player Torvald main who did a few hundred games and caused the high winrate. Therefor I prefer Diamond stats.

  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Tank Main's Speculative 3.4 Tier List.:

    @HeartQueen The problem with Master statistics are the low numbers. I'd say you need more than 1000 games for a viable statistic. Or you may have a pro-player Torvald main who did a few hundred games and caused the high winrate. Therefor I prefer Diamond stats.

    Average winrate in Diamond+ elo is 53% on console. Thanks Grandpa Torvald has a 57% winrate in Diamond+ elo. The thing is, you can literally pocket a dps of choice and force the team to get wrecker just to take down your shields.

    I honestly think they just need to rework him. Anything designed specifically to pocket something is bad fucking design. The reason being that it makes the pocket much better than they normally are, and the person that is pocketing the dps can't do anything by, or for, themselves. Corvus can't do shit for himself and in a vacuum where he has nothing to pocket, he's useless. Yet he can actually break Androxus/Zhin/Koga because of how long his range/duration for marks are. He can mark them before leaving spawn, and keep a constant pocket on them and heal them from over 500 units away. Same with Torvald. Torvald sucks on his own, but he breaks whoever he is pocketing.

  • @HeartQueen Well Torv was redesigned into a bubble bot. At first the bubble was only 2 seconds and not very strong. He was a point tank first, then an off-tank and finally got changed into an off-support.

  • I love the rants about torv.

    His design is not perfect, but honestly he is a mid range cover fire tank with an anti dive close quarters denial stagger engine with nullify and ult... you would expect his playstyle to be a bit passive until a foreseen need for a shut down is required.

    He wins by selective target protection and selective target ability denial... that's his firepower.. Its heavy jenos, with heavy control.

    I would say he is more so busted in tactful dive comps as his interference abilities has a cronk synergy in CC character comps when elim CDR is considered.

    If used correctly he has influence, just does not have same integrity as other tanks without a elim CD to reset his shut down and rebuff his HP.

    Before a hoard of nerfs his protec CD was overtoned for what shield HP it did provide and the potential ability reset that could be gained overall.
    The joke "everyone is a frontline" with torvald with the beta shield.
    Honestly I am still a tad surprised people feel harassed by the weak asf personal shields now, it stops a hand cannon shot at best.
    Does not win him favours as a pocket tank alone, this requires equal parts of performance from your allies.

    I guess people do not like to lose to multiple instant barriers....
    With elim CDR one can pump out shields with hastened speed, more akin to older shield application speeds, two shields per fight can be disgusting to fight against in a 1v1 fight but this requires a frag participation for ability acceleration.

    The pocket nature is symbiotic, he lacks firepower and mobility alone, creating fairly poor dive unless he has an advantage with a solid ability cancel.
    However when assisted by able players he gets a bulk load of nullify to abuse with elim CDR, and with twice the range on talent.
    I ain't finding Torvald a pocket tank, with the right ally cluster its a potential auto aim dive snowball if he runs interference with a barrier tank, allies with firepower, who all share a mind set to work around environment where torv has advantage.

    Nullify needed to deal greater damage to have threat pressure equal to his average dps, not less than. Apparently nullify was mistakenly valued to less damage then what was listed, could have more base range but arc to another target within half distance as a talent.

    Torvald can hinder champs who build dependant on (target contact = gain DR) or champ design that needs to break combat with a clutch ability.

    His main let down is his ult...
    While it has potential to multifrag dependant on map environment, alone it does very little in places where it can lock foes into terrain .
    I would enjoy a %max HP damage or a damage buff of some kind, because locking a foe into the ceiling corner for the entire duration should feel like it something more then mess up their hair.

  • @AYYDIMITRI His buff should get added CC imunity and maybe DR so he can't be so easily stunned or killed while ulting. It's very frustrating if the perfect ult gets ruined by a random stun or push. Also the ult mechanic can't deal with this and you get only the sound and animation but no effect, what is confusing.

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