Halve heals?



  • Half of the reason why supports feel so fun and good to play in this game is their high healing output. We reduced ther heals by 10-20% at start of s3 at they already felt awful to use.

    I would rather get that 50% inbuilt caut you constantly talk about than to reduce their heals so that they feel worse than in Overwatch...



  • @adek183 said in Halve heals?:

    That would effectively kill all healing-centered supporters

    The enemies would pick less cauterize what kills heals, so they would still have a window to do well.

    and would further reinforce sustain meta.

    Nerfing all heals why would rise sustain meta? Not OP heals made sustain meta?

    Rejuvenate would be a mandatory pic

    Rejuvenate would be effectively half as strong as now.

    Burst heals like Grover's blossom or Pip's potion would do next to nothing

    Why burst heal would suffer more than heal over time? Both would gain the same reduction.

    @Dusklicious said in Halve heals?:

    And considering how weak Rejuv is... Yeah.

    It would ... force double support

    You wrote: "RIP supports."
    So why would it force two supports if they are already dead?

    Worse than the pocket meta by far.

    Why?

    @TTraw said in Halve heals?:

    Half of the reason why supports feel so fun and good to play in this game is their high healing output.

    Being the most important part of the team is so funy and called OP.

    We reduced ther heals by 10-20% at start of s3 at they already felt awful to use.

    I didn't notice, sorry. I was busy with my Seris wins.

    I would rather get that 50% inbuilt caut you constantly talk about than to reduce their heals so that they feel worse than in Overwatch...

    We see caut won't be in the base kit. And Evil Mojo buffed it further more, instead of nerfing it. But it won't need a nerf after this simple change πŸ˜‰



  • The enemies would pick less cauterize what kills heals, so they would still have a window to do well.

    Oh hell no. If all of my enemies would have innate 50% caut on them all the time which stacks with caut itself i'd gladly pick caut 3 to completely nullify the healing potential.

    Nerfing all heals why would rise sustain meta? Not OP heals made sustain meta?

    Because you wouldn't be able to survive with just the support healing you. You'll either need massive damage reductions or A LOT of self healing cards.

    Rejuvenate would be effectively half as strong as now.

    Which still counteracts the innate 50% caut. The value of rejuvenate isn't the bonus healing it's the fact that it makes caut sting LESS.

    Why burst heal would suffer more than heal over time? Both would gain the same reduction.

    Burst heals have long cooldowns and suffer greatly from caut because... Well they're burst heals so they're instant. A single damba heal has a better chance to save a cauted target than Grover's blossom or Pip's healing potion because the moment healed target isn't cauted anymore he gets the full value of the lingering heal from a Damba if it still remains. If you hit a cauted player with Pip's potion there's nothing else you can do for the next 8 seconds (I disregarded loadout cards for the sake of a simple example)

    So why would it force two supports if they are already dead?

    Halved heals means supports are even MORE essential because a single support wouldn't be able to keep up.



  • @KicsitCsicska said in Halve heals?:

    Being the most important part of the team is so funy and called OP

    Sorry. I prefer fun game to a balanced one. We've already talked abut it.

    I didn't notice, sorry. I was busy with my Seris wins.

    You mean your damage oriented Seris which was clearly buffed at that point in time? It's almost as if powerful thing are fun and keep you busy? cough cough

    You mustve remembered the thread where I complained about how trash healing Seris was. I don't beg for buffs just because.



  • @TTraw Making out of combat heal a viable option, not just fully relying on your healer is much more funnier. Playing games without noobtraps and must picks like healer and caut is much more funnier, coz it isn't monoton. I would like to see different matches with different good picks, depends on the map and team comps. Champion, item, talent and loadout picks should based on circumstance, for make good or bad decisions by considering the situation. Now it is something much dumber. You need healer, you need caut, you need the op cards. Things are all the same despite we have millions of virtual options.
    Do you know what would be funy? Winning without a bloody healer, not just once per year.



  • I don't understand why people are so upset with healing and healers when the game is plagued by characters and abilities with a ttk lower than 2s.
    Are we seriously implying that there are more "I struggled to kill that character because they were getting healed" situations (and let's not even pretend it's "I cannot kill them at all because they are getting healed", we all know that'd be just a bs stretch) than "I was killed by a 2k burst from a single character before I knew what was happening" situations ?
    I really doubt that actually having to work to get a kill is any more annoying than getting <おまえ わ もう しんでいる>'d ...


  • PC

    @KicsitCsicska said in Halve heals?:

    @Dusklicious said in Halve heals?:

    And considering how weak Rejuv is... Yeah.

    It would ... force double support

    You wrote: "RIP supports."
    So why would it force two supports if they are already dead?

    Worse than the pocket meta by far.

    Why?

    You literally omitted half of the post, where I addressed this cherry-picked contradiction... I said either without much healing or with 2 supports with at least 1 running damage. And to kill two birds with one stone, not only will it make most healers as actual main supports totally unviable it will make pocket meta even worse because there'd be more value in the pocket's extra stats than in the actual healing. Corvus is already the best support in the game as of now, with this, he'd be by and far the best character in the game... Not only would his 25% lifesteal marks have even MORE value since you said heals specifically and not lifesteal cards, but it would make competing with him totally pointless in terms of sustaining a team.

    Also, while we're here, there's more this meta would do than just kill off every support that isn't a pocket as a main healer. Inara would probably be dead, Barik would be kind of broken being that he doesn't rely as much on supports as other points, Khan would be easily as bad as Lex (he's already not very good as is)... And Pip, he's just totally screwed healing wise. It's already pretty bad, but after this, you might as well AFK and shut off the computer because you'll do NOTHING for the team whatsoever. Also, Damba might end up being even worse than Pip, because at least Catalyst isn't just completely and utterly bad like Stun Damba is at the moment.

    Yeah, so, f*** no to this idea, it would kill the game...



  • @Dusklicious Hohooo, wait a minute! IDK why would it makes 1 main healer + 1 dmg healer meta at all.
    All of the supporters' ally heals would be nerfed. So why main supports would suffer only, while pocket healers being meta? They wouldn't get heal nerfs? They would. I already suggested to nerf Corvus' Lifesteal card anyways. And all of the other healers have they own kit for help the team and being useful. E.g. Ying can body block with illusions, use them as personal shields. Damba could still stun. Anyways I suggested to buff stun Damba, but they buffed healer Damba again... Healer Pip sucked all the time, so he needs his own buffs. But his poor balance is an other case.

    Khan has 1000k burst heal, what still could heal allies and not halved. He has cc, good dmg, can headshot, shielding whenever... Why would he bad? You just didn't explain it at all.
    Inara has huge HP, and out of combat self regeneration would be buffed as I suggested, and it depends on the max HP, so she could gain benefit from this.

    The problems you listed are the current balance problems, what has no clue to this suggestion (stun Damba and healer Pip suck) and you just underestimate halved heals. Ppl still buy caut 3. Caut 2 is already halve the heals, but it isn't enaugh for us. It means halved heals are still too strong. Otherwise why would we buy caut 3?



  • Supports with low healing output might become useless. A Jenos heals for 90 per second then. Not even worth buying cauterize. A 1K healer like IO could still work.

    Tanks would probably get weaker since especially point tanks are effective cause of getting healed. A five dps team could become viable. Champ with self-heal would profit: Buck, Barik.

    All in all this would ruin the whole balancing.



  • Reducing heals without reducing damage is an awful idea. It would make already OP high damage, burst damage champions OP as frak. Think about that Andro can deal 2166 damage in a second. Most of the damage and support champs have like 2000-2200 hp. Also there are supports with no buffs, debuffs or CC. Like Ying. Reduces healing and her already bad talent Exchange Life will become even worse. Giving up her defense for 400 healing ? And lastly what about shielding ? Torvald will become no 1 "support" in the game ?



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Halve heals?:

    Supports with low healing output might become useless.

    The game is still with halved heals, coz everybody runs for caut2. There are also non cauterized heals, but it's missing would be compensated with the better out of combat selfregen.

    A Jenos heals for 90 per second then. Not even worth buying cauterize.

    Yes, this is the aim. Make caut something optional, not must pick.

    A 1K healer like IO could still work.

    Both could work, but neighter against caut or against burst dmg.

    Tanks would probably get weaker since especially point tanks are effective cause of getting healed.

    I would buff out of combat selfregen, what is based on max hp. It means it could favor for them. Have you ever tried Fernando with Veteran III ?

    A five dps team could become viable.

    Yes this is the other aim. Don't force players to play all of the classes. Many of us - especially on low elo - wanna play damage dealers. Let them play without losing their match.

    Champ with self-heal would profit: Buck, Barik. All in all this would ruin the whole balancing.

    Yes, it needs some secondary balance changes as well. Nerf the selfheal of Buck and Barik, but buff heal based champions like Inara and Moji.

    @Dusklicious said in Halve heals?:

    Inara would probably be dead, Barik would be kind of broken

    I was thinking about this one. Barik's selfheal cards would need furher nerf. But Inara. Thb inara playing isn't so exciting. She is realy strong, defensive and definitly needs gamesense to play well, but still. She would need buffs, and I created buffs what would make her more intresting:

    • You could reposition Impasse by holding the button of the skill.
    • Buff Tremors: Impasse now has 2 charges and its Cooldown is reduced to 10s. (You are still able to remove or redeploy your earlier changed wall)
    • Add lvl5 current Summit card into her base kit. It isn't so useful, but so funy and eventful!
    • Rework Summit: Reduce your gravity and increase your air controll by {10|10}%.


  • @KicsitCsicska said in Halve heals?:

    Yes, this is the aim. Make caut something optional, not must pick.

    Why? Whats the profit if caut is optional?



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 You will have 4 item slots for customize your setup, not 3. Buying a mustpick all the time reduces the variety. I have already wrote it million times in the forum.
    This is why balance is a thing in games. For avoid must picks and trash picks. Both make the game preterminated.



  • @KicsitCsicska If every item shall be balanced it would be much easier to make veteran better than cauterize worse. Items are no champions though who compete vs each other. It's obvious that items like bulldozer or illuminate can't be as good as heaven or cauterize, without changing the complete game.



  • TBH, I am more upset now that I never pick bulldozeer against deployable based teams than the fact I pick caut everytime there's heal on enemy team.


  • PC

    Pretty sure he has me blocked but I'll post it anyway.

    Instead of halfing support heals how bout something like this?

    • Lower all support healing output by 10%
    • Add a built in .75 second caut for all weapon shots of 40%
    • Reduce the caut item levels to 7/14/21 that adds to the built in caut and extends the time to 1.5s

  • PC

    @Vaporized said in Halve heals?:

    Pretty sure he has me blocked but I'll post it anyway.

    Instead of halfing support heals how bout something like this?

    • Lower all support healing output by 10%
    • Add a built in .75 second caut for all weapon shots of 40%
    • Reduce the caut item levels to 7/14/21 that adds to the built in caut and extends the time to 1.5s

    Honestly I kind of liked a more tame idea of his caut nerf, a nerf where you wouldn't have to even lower healing at all for the same effect.

    • Add 30% healing reduction for 1.5 seconds on all in-hand weapon hits.
    • Cauterize scaling lowered to 15/30/45% for 1.5 seconds.

    This would effectively nerf the early game power of healing without needing Cauterize to be made any stronger (in fact making it less of a necessity), while keeping the duration the same so it isn't mostly useless on snipers/Sha/lower fire rate characters.


  • PC

    @Dusklicious said in Halve heals?:

    @Vaporized said in Halve heals?:

    Pretty sure he has me blocked but I'll post it anyway.

    Instead of halfing support heals how bout something like this?

    • Lower all support healing output by 10%
    • Add a built in .75 second caut for all weapon shots of 40%
    • Reduce the caut item levels to 7/14/21 that adds to the built in caut and extends the time to 1.5s

    Honestly I kind of liked a more tame idea of his caut nerf, a nerf where you wouldn't have to even lower healing at all for the same effect.

    • Add 30% healing reduction for 1.5 seconds on all in-hand weapon hits.
    • Cauterize scaling lowered to 15/30/45% for 1.5 seconds.

    This would effectively nerf the early game power of healing without needing Cauterize to be made any stronger (in fact making it less of a necessity), while keeping the duration the same so it isn't mostly useless on snipers/Sha/lower fire rate characters.

    Not saying that wouldn't work overall but I don't think it gets the desired affect he's looking for (I.E. significantly reduce the importance). I don't think 30% base is enough anti heal to eliminate at least L1 as a requirement. It really does take around 50% to be effective at the current support heal levels.

    I'm not concerned about the lower fire rate champions.

    • Snipers do so much damage that they shouldn't get the full time benefit at base.
    • They can always buy just L1 to get the time extension if they want/need it.
    • There are 4 other teammates which will also have at minimum the base caut to apply. Overall there will be more caut application since everyone has the base caut where currently "healing" supports generally don't get it - even snipers don't always get it.
    • Supports will have more chance to heal between those lower rate shots.

    The reason I don't have the base time the same is to justify keeping the credits at or near the same as now. Since my %s are quite a reduction I felt the item needed more value. I'm open to up to 1 second as base though.

    Edit: Maybe my caut item would add .25s per level instead of extending to 1.5s just for L1.

    It's possible in my scheme the suggested 10% support heal reduction might not be needed at all. It might even cause a need for increased support healing output (same as for your numbers) - a distinct possibility because of the overall increased caut application.



  • @Vaporized The easiest way would be to implement cauterize into primary weapon fire, so one doesn't have to buy it. I don't think that cauterize being the best item is a major problem though.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0 I don't have an issue with it either other than ignorant people who don't understand how important/effective anti healing is.

    My suggestion was to add base 40% caut to weapon attacks with a reduced application time unless they buy the caut item which will extend the time and add some more %. At 40%, you don't HAVE to buy it and everyone would be a caut applier making it quite effective even with the lower base application time.


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