Halve heals?



  • Supports with low healing output might become useless. A Jenos heals for 90 per second then. Not even worth buying cauterize. A 1K healer like IO could still work.

    Tanks would probably get weaker since especially point tanks are effective cause of getting healed. A five dps team could become viable. Champ with self-heal would profit: Buck, Barik.

    All in all this would ruin the whole balancing.



  • Reducing heals without reducing damage is an awful idea. It would make already OP high damage, burst damage champions OP as frak. Think about that Andro can deal 2166 damage in a second. Most of the damage and support champs have like 2000-2200 hp. Also there are supports with no buffs, debuffs or CC. Like Ying. Reduces healing and her already bad talent Exchange Life will become even worse. Giving up her defense for 400 healing ? And lastly what about shielding ? Torvald will become no 1 "support" in the game ?



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Halve heals?:

    Supports with low healing output might become useless.

    The game is still with halved heals, coz everybody runs for caut2. There are also non cauterized heals, but it's missing would be compensated with the better out of combat selfregen.

    A Jenos heals for 90 per second then. Not even worth buying cauterize.

    Yes, this is the aim. Make caut something optional, not must pick.

    A 1K healer like IO could still work.

    Both could work, but neighter against caut or against burst dmg.

    Tanks would probably get weaker since especially point tanks are effective cause of getting healed.

    I would buff out of combat selfregen, what is based on max hp. It means it could favor for them. Have you ever tried Fernando with Veteran III ?

    A five dps team could become viable.

    Yes this is the other aim. Don't force players to play all of the classes. Many of us - especially on low elo - wanna play damage dealers. Let them play without losing their match.

    Champ with self-heal would profit: Buck, Barik. All in all this would ruin the whole balancing.

    Yes, it needs some secondary balance changes as well. Nerf the selfheal of Buck and Barik, but buff heal based champions like Inara and Moji.

    @Dusklicious said in Halve heals?:

    Inara would probably be dead, Barik would be kind of broken

    I was thinking about this one. Barik's selfheal cards would need furher nerf. But Inara. Thb inara playing isn't so exciting. She is realy strong, defensive and definitly needs gamesense to play well, but still. She would need buffs, and I created buffs what would make her more intresting:

    • You could reposition Impasse by holding the button of the skill.
    • Buff Tremors: Impasse now has 2 charges and its Cooldown is reduced to 10s. (You are still able to remove or redeploy your earlier changed wall)
    • Add lvl5 current Summit card into her base kit. It isn't so useful, but so funy and eventful!
    • Rework Summit: Reduce your gravity and increase your air controll by {10|10}%.


  • @KicsitCsicska said in Halve heals?:

    Yes, this is the aim. Make caut something optional, not must pick.

    Why? Whats the profit if caut is optional?



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 You will have 4 item slots for customize your setup, not 3. Buying a mustpick all the time reduces the variety. I have already wrote it million times in the forum.
    This is why balance is a thing in games. For avoid must picks and trash picks. Both make the game preterminated.



  • @KicsitCsicska If every item shall be balanced it would be much easier to make veteran better than cauterize worse. Items are no champions though who compete vs each other. It's obvious that items like bulldozer or illuminate can't be as good as heaven or cauterize, without changing the complete game.



  • TBH, I am more upset now that I never pick bulldozeer against deployable based teams than the fact I pick caut everytime there's heal on enemy team.


  • PC

    Pretty sure he has me blocked but I'll post it anyway.

    Instead of halfing support heals how bout something like this?

    • Lower all support healing output by 10%
    • Add a built in .75 second caut for all weapon shots of 40%
    • Reduce the caut item levels to 7/14/21 that adds to the built in caut and extends the time to 1.5s

  • PC

    @Vaporized said in Halve heals?:

    Pretty sure he has me blocked but I'll post it anyway.

    Instead of halfing support heals how bout something like this?

    • Lower all support healing output by 10%
    • Add a built in .75 second caut for all weapon shots of 40%
    • Reduce the caut item levels to 7/14/21 that adds to the built in caut and extends the time to 1.5s

    Honestly I kind of liked a more tame idea of his caut nerf, a nerf where you wouldn't have to even lower healing at all for the same effect.

    • Add 30% healing reduction for 1.5 seconds on all in-hand weapon hits.
    • Cauterize scaling lowered to 15/30/45% for 1.5 seconds.

    This would effectively nerf the early game power of healing without needing Cauterize to be made any stronger (in fact making it less of a necessity), while keeping the duration the same so it isn't mostly useless on snipers/Sha/lower fire rate characters.


  • PC

    @Dusklicious said in Halve heals?:

    @Vaporized said in Halve heals?:

    Pretty sure he has me blocked but I'll post it anyway.

    Instead of halfing support heals how bout something like this?

    • Lower all support healing output by 10%
    • Add a built in .75 second caut for all weapon shots of 40%
    • Reduce the caut item levels to 7/14/21 that adds to the built in caut and extends the time to 1.5s

    Honestly I kind of liked a more tame idea of his caut nerf, a nerf where you wouldn't have to even lower healing at all for the same effect.

    • Add 30% healing reduction for 1.5 seconds on all in-hand weapon hits.
    • Cauterize scaling lowered to 15/30/45% for 1.5 seconds.

    This would effectively nerf the early game power of healing without needing Cauterize to be made any stronger (in fact making it less of a necessity), while keeping the duration the same so it isn't mostly useless on snipers/Sha/lower fire rate characters.

    Not saying that wouldn't work overall but I don't think it gets the desired affect he's looking for (I.E. significantly reduce the importance). I don't think 30% base is enough anti heal to eliminate at least L1 as a requirement. It really does take around 50% to be effective at the current support heal levels.

    I'm not concerned about the lower fire rate champions.

    • Snipers do so much damage that they shouldn't get the full time benefit at base.
    • They can always buy just L1 to get the time extension if they want/need it.
    • There are 4 other teammates which will also have at minimum the base caut to apply. Overall there will be more caut application since everyone has the base caut where currently "healing" supports generally don't get it - even snipers don't always get it.
    • Supports will have more chance to heal between those lower rate shots.

    The reason I don't have the base time the same is to justify keeping the credits at or near the same as now. Since my %s are quite a reduction I felt the item needed more value. I'm open to up to 1 second as base though.

    Edit: Maybe my caut item would add .25s per level instead of extending to 1.5s just for L1.

    It's possible in my scheme the suggested 10% support heal reduction might not be needed at all. It might even cause a need for increased support healing output (same as for your numbers) - a distinct possibility because of the overall increased caut application.



  • @Vaporized The easiest way would be to implement cauterize into primary weapon fire, so one doesn't have to buy it. I don't think that cauterize being the best item is a major problem though.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0 I don't have an issue with it either other than ignorant people who don't understand how important/effective anti healing is.

    My suggestion was to add base 40% caut to weapon attacks with a reduced application time unless they buy the caut item which will extend the time and add some more %. At 40%, you don't HAVE to buy it and everyone would be a caut applier making it quite effective even with the lower base application time.



  • @Vaporized said in Halve heals?:

    My suggestion was to add base 40% caut to weapon attacks with a reduced application time unless they buy the caut item which will extend the time and add some more %. At 40%, you don't HAVE to buy it and everyone would be a caut applier making it quite effective even with the lower base application time.

    That's the best idea about cauterize I've seen so far. Hirez, Hirez, do you read!?



  • Can drastically reduce healing without ruining the impact and feeling of it.

    All we can hope is to find balance between healing and damage values.
    Then mitigate what trade time extension healing brings with cauterise and anti heal mechanics to wither the effects of regeneration.

    Personally I like the concept that each character has their own methods of self sustain, and thus the healing output of supports does not need to grant full recovery strength if it can synergise with the characters recovery mechanics.

    As for my take on how healing should be administered.
    Finding cap for max heal/survival value of strong heal abilities.
    Reduce impact of instantly strong heals and provide sustain healing to target(s) afterwards.
    This should reduce the survival through sheer healing value, and require a character to mitigate time or build towards receiving healing.
    This temporary regeneration state works in tandem with a characters recovery dynamics and states, allowing allies to roam with a regen buff applied to enhance the value of their personal moments of recovery.

    In pip's case, applying regeneration after potion would allow its upfront heal value to be decreased while it can potentially heal for a greater amount over time, due to the reduce up front heal value and the slow regeneration, you could potentially enhance the frequency of potion due to having a reduce initial impact.

    Apply this to Grohk, allow allies who touch his totem area to passive heal for a reduced rate for a brief time and the totem gains greater area of influence depending on the character and class design ability to work around it as well as stay in it.

    But I digress... Its more of healing tweaks and of certain heal dynamics..


    As for a discussion about Base weapon attack applying anti healing for additional firepower pressure vs combat regeneration features.
    While I agree that Base Weapon anti heal would be an interesting change and make anti heal a passive game play feature.
    I would pitch that certain abilities should act as weapon attacks and apply item store effects.
    The design of damage should include an anti heal synergy to deny the recovery provided by another class. All healing denied is a form of damage and this should be part of the design of damage champions.
    But that also may come with the decree that shredding damage and strong hitscan may need a dps rebalance due to the added base cauterise utility.

    I'd wager that 20/40/60/80/100 or 30/45/60/75/90 anti heal % values spread across various application methods such as cauterise and damage abilities would seamlessly fit into the game with the current state of healing.

    • 20/30 A low value for base weapon cauterise or more application methods of general anti heal would be interesting, cauterise still needs build viability. However if weapons are to apply anti heal a utility effect so freely, you must also look to the viability of other skills and abilities to slightly hinder healing as a zoning effect.

    • 40/60/80 or 45/60/75 is a good middle ground for anti healing and caut values. 40 - 60 Dancing around either side of 50% is not a secure denial of healing, but it will take a majority of impact out of combat recovery. Any value after 75% will become a heal execution, with a small gap for marginal healing to have influence.

    • 90/100 total heal denial states are a good zoning method if not abused and done correctly, if you are going to have healing power ult abilities that can heal for an absurd value, you will need the power to counter the zoning that healing provides.


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