Balance Skye

  • Hi!
    I like the fact that she can do all classes. But she is bottom tier, and buffing her without reworking would make her a damage dealer or healer again. She is also overly relies on sealth, so Illuminate makes her almost useless.
    My balance points would make her a useful flanker, who can outplay Illuminate but haven't got that huge damage output.

    1. Reduce her sealth durations:
      Hidden: 7.5s -> 4s.
      sealth after leaving Smoke Screen: 3s -> 0.5s.

    2. Balance these nerfed skills, add mobility:
      Hidden: You start to sprint and gain speed boost over time: from 0% up to 80% after 3.5s. The last half sec is about slowing back. Add a new sprint animation to this skill.
      For balance the cards based around this skill halve the bonus of Cloak and double the bonus of Ninja.
      Smoke Screen: The appearing smoke circle deals 600 damage (just as the old Smoke and Dagger talent did, but now in the base kit).

    3. Nerf damage:
      She got a new damage burst for her Smoke Screen in order to use it less often to hide herself, but it means she also needs damage nerf, coz her initail damage is also huge.
      Decrease her ammo count from 25 to 15.
      Rework Decrepify: Slowing down the target by 8%/lvl for 1.5s. So it won't give free ammo, and its bonus will suit to its name finally.
      The smaller magazine will finally make Tactical Reload and Twilight Armor useful cards.

    4. Ultimate buff:
      Her ultimate is the easiest thing to dodge. It's even weaker than Cassie's ult. So moderate buffs wouldn't make it OP, but at least it could kill sometimes:
      -Reduce the timer from 2.5s to 2s.
      -Incriease the fully effective range from 25 units to 50 units.

    5. Rework talents:
      First of all rename Smoke and Dagger, coz there's no dagger, rather healing: Energiser Vapors.
      Remove Debilitate, coz it's just a flat damage boost, not something what reworks your playstyle.
      As a substitute add a new Smoke and Dagger: You instantly teleport into the middle of the appearing Smoke Screen, but it no longer deals damage.
      Reducing damage and add mobility is also the aim of this post, this is why I suggested this talent replacement.

  • PC

    @KicsitCsicska seriously why nerf her shes so easy get counter

  • @KicsitCsicska The idea is pretty good but I think the nerfs you proposed to counterbalance the buffs are a bit too much. 15 ammo means she'd only deal 1950 at max with a full mag and considering she also has the worst falloff in the game she'd struggle to kill most characters. She'd need to be able to get really close to her target or rely most of the times on Smoke Screen to get kills. So, I suggest reducing the stealths to no less than 5 and 1.5 respectively, so they can be a bit more useful to approach (also, since they'd still be countered by Illuminate there's no need to nerf them so much), reduce the ammo only down to 20 but make smoke screen deal only 450 dmg instead.

  • @SomeGuySomeWhere I think 450 smoke damage wouldn't be worthy to waste it for, she would rather use it as she did it originally: put it under herself. 15 ammo would be enaugh if you consider that the poison also deals 726 damage to an average 2200 max hp target, and the smoke deals 600.
    1950+726+600=3276, what is enaugh damage for kill. She also has Twilight Armor if you need more ammo 🙂
    She could get close to the enemies with her new sprint Hidden for deal enaugh damage, and I think andro has even worse fallout without Cursed Revolver.

    Maybe the buffs aren't enaugh for her. I think Illuminate was a dcent pick against sealth champions even before its cost reducing, so if we renerf if to 200 base cost the item would be still fine, and it could help Skye and Sha Lin a lot. It could balance Skye.
    I also added a ultimate buff for her 😎 ⏲ 💣

  • @KicsitCsicska said in Balance Skye:

    15 ammo would be enaugh if you consider that the poison also deals 726 damage to an average 2200 max hp target, and the smoke deals 600.

    Yeah, yeah, I know, I was just thinking that she'd be the only champion that cannot under most circumstances rely on her primary fire alone to get a kill. If she always must use at least one of her abilities to kill a target (obviously I'm ignoring reloading, I'm basing the argument on the fact that having to reload mid-fight would always put her at a disadvantage) then she'd become completely dependant on her cooldowns, which I don't think is really a positive change. Let's agree on 17 ammo, this way she'd be able to deal enough damage at least when landing all shots at her effective range.

    I think 450 smoke damage wouldn't be worthy to waste it for, she would rather use it as she did it originally: put it under herself.

    Well, yes, but if it's too high then the ability primary purpose would become that of being thrown away to damage enemies instead of being an actual ninja-vanish-poof-bomb. It would become a different ability, damage with a stealth bonus instead of stealth with a damage bonus.

    I think andro has even worse fallout without Cursed Revolver.

    If I'm not mistaken, Andro deals 520 below 50 units down to 208 at 440 units, while Skye deals 130 below 40 units down to 39 at 200 units. With some very rough math, I'd say Andro has a lower falloff (60% compared to Skye's 70%) over a greater distance (390 units compared to 160)

  • If I was to redesign skye, or a poisoner character in general.
    I would go along the lines of multiple stacks of sustain damage.

    Both sustain damage debuff types, (poison and burn) should undergo ramping stack/tier mechanics to streamline and overhaul sustain damage.

    Certain weapons and abilities should apply a certain threshold of sustain debuff damage with limitations around their various application methods.

    Regarding skye's abilities.
    Considering I personally see skye as a damage, pretending to be a flank with bad design choices vs poor match ups.
    Tbh its her primary attack type and the range its given.
    Primary attack could be altered to provide something more...
    A simple spray and pray design just does not cut it.

    Poison bolts timid as a passive sustain drain to have as a secondary attack, but kind of unfair free damage when used to compensate for max HP to be continuously chipped by..
    Personally I'm just not a fan of the feel of it...
    I'd rather toggle in between firing poison bolts and primary attack.
    Slower fire rate on bolts than primary, less damage, longer window, wider spread, more targets hit, hits apply a poison stack for a small time.

    Smoke bomb should just be Choke bomb...
    Applies poison for several seconds, combines with poison bolts poison stacks.

    Ult's gets burst damage reduction but applies a lingering poison stack to all foes hit.

    Combine all this together and skye should be able to be pulling off area debilitate sustain damage by landing all three area poison attacks.

    As a side note, more maps could use elevators, doors, and assets that move or provide information when any champ (invisible or not) attempts to use.

    Portals and non moving map assets provide advantage to invisible champs as its hard to tell if they have been used recently and that leads characters to be hard to balance on certain maps.

    Personally I think the game should only use portals for multi spawn room access, or progression across half the map if the cart has reached a checkpoint.

  • @KicsitCsicska ok I play a lot of skye and I personally think most these changes are ok but the new decrepify card is broken this will allow skye to kill people in barely a second with little aim becuz hitting headshots with that slow will be too easy than it should be. I'd say this card would be viable even at 20% on lvl 5 making it easier to hit headshots but not in a braindead way. And no tactical reload was always a great card and was always a glorified version of decrepify as long as u ran debilitate. with debilitate skye already had enough sustain dmg to kill anything with 25 ammo so this card allowed her to rely less on her poisons to get kills and did u know that the duration is reset and at the same time her reload speed scaling is doubled when u use poisons again within 5s? u don't even need to hit your poisons to get the benefits. Decrepify is a preparation card but she won't need it anymore with these changes so that's nice. And no way her ult doesn't need buffs except for the falloff buff. with competent teams your ult can have game changing value without even killing anything.
    I like these changes but reworking skye isn't necessary. she's still decent in the right hands and is insanely underrated becuz of how good she is in the pocket meta. she just needs speed buffs in hidden, replace debilitate with old 600 dmg smoke and dagger and give Preparation a 2nd armor benefit where increased movement speed effects no longer apply diminishing returns. There Skye is great and didn't have to be reworked. I would have given her a "buff weapon dmg but nerf dmg talent treatment" aswell becuz low time to kill is supposed to be her thing but that would be a little problematic on console. In the right hands however, Skye is pretty strong as a flank you just gotta be smart and be more aware of the enemy team and help your team by being invisible at the right time and protect your team from enemy dps. She protects backliners better than anyone because of how long her stealth can last so less duration in hidden is not an idea I'm comfortable with.

  • As a console player, I like the idea of Skye having less damage. A lot of grandmasters basically ban Vivian and Koga, and then run Skye and farm a winrate with her. She is low skill and high-medium reward. I'd be down for a reward that makes it so you have to at least hit smoke screen and your shots in order to burst someone down. I like the idea of the movement speed with Hidden, and the extra movement speed for Smoke Screen and sacrifice damage.

    I agree that debilitate needs to be deleted, and I think preparation needs to be reworked as well. It seems like they know that they fucked up with Skye's design by giving her no mobility and just stealth, so they basically gave her a bunch of damage to make up for it. This is the worst way to balance a flank in my opinion. It's why Talus and Koga are broken on console and crap on PC; that paired with aim assist.

    The thing I don't like is the slow on Decrepify card. That is pure cancer waiting to happen.

    Honestly speaking, Skye just needs a rework. But I do think your idea is something that Hirez should look to implement because, aside from your smoke screen idea, it's generally a numbers change instead of an all out rework so it shouldn't be too much work.

  • @HeartQueen @SNIper-poTAto
    Thank you for your answers and votes!
    First of all both of you wrote about you found the new Decrepify OP, so I nerfed the suggestion. The reasons I suggested to rework it were that it gave too much free ammo for her and the effect didn't even suited to the name and the avatar.
    Tbh I suggested one more thing over number changes: add a new sprint animation for Hidden. It would make her run faster and faster over the duration and the super quickly 80% speed boost would look ridiculous with the simple walking animation. I think a sprinting Skye would look cool and it isn't a big deal to animeate for Evil Mojo 😎
    Anyways, what do you think about the new talent I just suggested to add instead of Delibitate?:

    Smoke and Dagger: You instantly teleport where the Smoke Bomb hits a surface, but it no longer deals damage.

  • @KicsitCsicska I mistook her nimble fingers card to be tactical reload, silly me. I don't think this talent is strong enough. like Skye weapon imo would be too weak without the 600 smoke dmg and why would I need vertical mobility when I have 80% speed and a card to increase duration from 3.5->6s. This talent may only be the best option for skye in split stone quarry and serpent beach which is pretty niche. I don't think giving her a vertical mobility talent would be good. We have enough flanks for that and this conflicts with her slightly lower mobility design. I suggest a different approach to replace debilitate like for example making her smoke a 1000 hp deployable that blinds people within its radius unless destroyed and also increase the radius of the smoke at the cost of the 600 dmg burst. This could make skye a duelist flank like zhin and be able to take 1v1s with anyone.

  • @SNIper-poTAto I mean she would start with 0% speed boost and increase it over the duration up to 80%. The average speed boost would be 40%, coz she would have constant accleration. The longer Hidden duration you have causes the lessen the accleration you gain, coz it should garant 80% speed boost at the end.

    There are many maps with highgrounds what is good for this talent and the teleport could garant suprise attack. It could also help you to get out from risky situations, but it has a huge delay coz the Smoke Bomb flies slowly. Unlike as other flankers. This why it would be unique.

    Tbh I don't like blind, it gives literally no chanse to the enemies, and very frustrationg to play against. How could you damage a smoke area if it would have HP? I think attacks shouldn't hurt smoke, at most Torvald could blow it away. 🌬 👴

  • @SNIper-poTAto @KicsitCsicska

    To be honest, as a console player, I'm fine with her having less ammo and less spam in order to have more mobility. I think optional vertical mobility is a good thing.

    I would actually rework poison bolts for a better burst option. The issue with debilitate is that it's just a tank burner and it doesn't burst squishies. Debilitate does 750 damage in 2 seconds, to a target with 2,000 hp. That's a sad dps of 375. Yet it does 1,500 damage in 2 seconds to a target with 4,000 hp, a dps of 750. Normal poison is even sadder where it does 600 in 4 seconds, which is a dps of 150. I think her poisons should have a set burst. Like a burst of 200 per poison up front, which is an upfront burst of 600 and lower the normal damage of her primary weapon from 130-->110 every .1 seconds. In that case, she can have 20 ammo and it won't be too busted.

    That way even if her smoke screen doesn't do damage, she can still finish people off by diving in and out. Less damage and more mobility is something we should strive for when balancing the flank class. I don't want it the other way around. If anything, I'd rather have the frustrating design of Bulk Up Buck and Zhin than to have the design of Talus and Debilitate Skye.

  • @HeartQueen I'm fine with her ammo damage and the current mechanic of poison. Poisons shouldn't deal burst damage, these kill slowly.
    Anyways the less balance suggestion is the better balance suggestion, coz players don't wanna deal with unnecessary changes all the time, so devs do the minimal changes what they find enaugh.

  • I'd say a champ relying on invisibility is a bad idea so there is no way to rework Skye. She will either be a pain in the ass on lower ranks or bad on higher ranks. Only way would be a complete rework, like into a healer or similar to Lex. Apart from that she is already balanced as good as possible.

  • @KicsitCsicska i don't like the idea of her speed boost to increase overtime through the ENTIRE DURATION. Imo there should a 1-2s timer where her speed stays 80% and doesn't accelerate further. For example, her speed accelerating from 0-60% for 2.5s and the other 1.5s where her speed consistently remains 60%. Something like that. Constant acceleration is great but... for the entire duration of hidden? that would be clunky to use and learn especially when u try this ability with different levels of cloak and ninja cuz each level would feel very different if the speed acceleration slowed down by getting those cards. Also lack of vertical mobility is supposed to be one of her natural weaknesses. Just like how dredge is supposed to be bad against flyers but EM made a bad decision where they literally gave him a talent to counter flyers. My blind idea was just one example of a unique talent that doesn't give skye benefits which she shouldn't have. Talents are supposed to change playstyles not make them good at everything at the cost of whatever. Here's another example of a rework idea for debilitate I'd like your opinion on- You now heal for 150% of the damage done by poison bolts and the dmg overtime persists for as long as the target is within a range of 45 units from skye(the same number as illuminate 3).

  • @SNIper-poTAto I agree with the first part, but healing poison is silly.

  • @KicsitCsicska well there are poison themed characters in different MOBAs that have life steal with their dmg over time abilities. Vy from rogue company for example. her zoning poison ability heals/increases her maximum hp while it does dmg. So i don't think it's silly. Skye doesn't have sustain options/talents other than healing vapors which is area limited and most importantly, her 4s poison pauses her out of combat healing so it is very punishing when u are on low hp and a target u tried to burst down with your poison escapes and now u have a 9s out of combat cooldown... debilitate solved this problem and I don't want suffer to deal with this every game. Also giving Skye a 1vs1/actual sustain talent would be real nice becuz of the points I mentioned above and she has a hard time trying to win many 1v1 matchups because skye has little to no self defense if she gets flanked because illuminate exists.

  • @roiwtto999 just name her run faster lol she needs to be able to escape faster, and make illuminate pulsate instead of permenantly showing them.

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