What if we removed 1 card per category?



  • @TTraw said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    Hmm, I'd say this are some of the ones I'd defend the most (I didn't consider those that you proposed to move or merge, that would be a different discussion):

    • Equivalent Exchange (Q):
      • Heal for {10|10}% of the damage Absorbed by Reversal.

    Combined with Disrupt or Seething Hatred this gets really good in Reversal builds, such as when playing Godslayer, especially when going against must-hold-left-click champions (Raum, Dredge, Vivian, etc.).

    • Castle Forged
      • Reduce the Cooldown of Kinetic Burst by {0.6|0.6}s.

    Ash has many builds that revolve around Kinetic Burst (Self-heal, Shield reset, Booper, etc.) so this card is quite common.

    • Infinity Engine
      • Your weapon doesn't consume Ammo for {2|2}s after activating Stasis Field.

    Personal choice, Atlas' weapon sucks ammo-wise, so I really really like this card especially considering how much it scales up.

    • Tangled
      • Increase the duration of Net Shot by {0.3|0.3}s.

    For the Ensnare build, at level 3 this grants an additional shot with bonus damage, which is obviously a big thing

    • Kinetics
      • Generate {1|1} Ammo for each enemy hit by Blast Shot.

    It can trigger multiple times, even at low level it can completely refill her ammo.

    • Sky Warden
      • Heal for {125|125} after hitting an enemy with Disengage.

    Unless you're going for Big Game, you won't use Disengage much offensively (except for knocking off the map), so having such a big heal (up to 625) on the ability turns it into a reliable self-heal.

    • Fatal Sign
      • Increase your Reload Speed by {12|12}% for 5s after getting an Elimination.

    Not her most useful one, I agree, but its scaling, duration and the fact that ot triggers on eliminations too are too good to consider this card useless, especially considering Cassie doesn't have a really big mag.

    • Abyssal Shift
      • Reduce your damage taken by {3|3}% while your Projection is out.

    If you use Projection offensively without activating the teleport this sinergizes quite well. Not an high DR, but for a healer its quite decent.

    Dredge:

    • Blow the Man Down
      • Enemies hit by Harpoon’s Slow have their Movement Speed reduced by an additional {6|6}%.

    It can basically turn all enemies hit into sitting ducks, at max level Harpoon becomes one of the strongest slows in the game.

    Drogoz

    • Hyper Boost
      • Restore {4|4}% of your Booster fuel each time Salvo hits an enemy.

    At just level 2 a full Salvo can restore most of your fuel (and Salvo can be fully reset !), for W.Y.R.M. builds this is really good.

    • Altitude
      • Restore {20|20}% of your maximum Booster fuel after getting a Killing Blow or Elimination.

    Same as the above, this the top for infinite flight with W.Y.R.M Jets, especially considering how strong it scales and the fact that it can trigger on eliminations too.

    • Pyre
      • Increase your maximum Ammo by {15|15}.

    Each level is basically an additional second you can fire. Considering Fernando's low damage and high reload time this is really useful even as a filler card.

    • Hallowed Sight
      • Generate {10|10}% Wrath after hitting an enemy with Pyre Strike.

    After her nerf she really needs Wrath gen. If you're going for a damage oriented build this is much better than Ruthless, especially with Exterminate, since it triggers the effect multiple times so even at low level landing a Pyre Strike fills a lot of your Wrath.

    • Light of Dawn
      • Apply a {35|35}-Health Shield for 2s to allies affected by Kindle Soul.

    I know it got nerfed to the ground, but I'd rather see it buffed again than removed, it was a really good card.

    • Chopper
      • Heal for {100|100} after hitting an enemy with Crippling Throw.

    If I'm not mistaken, this triggers multiple times with Deep Roots, leading to a pretty massive self heal.

    • Elemental Barrier
      • Heal for {50|50} after using Elemental Shift.

    Apparently not so strong, but Elemental Shift's cooldown can be reduced down to nothing (and with next update even more !) so this basically becomes a free heal whenever she wants.

    • Protectors
      • Regenerate {2|2}% Moonlight every 1s while within 30 units of Luna.
    • Sanctum of Faith
      • Regenerate {1|1}% Moonlight every 1s when not using Moonlight.

    I know she also has Moonlight Garden, but each one of this cards has its ideal situation. Since Io needs as much Moonlight regen as she can (being her healing source), all of them are useful.

    • Moonwalk
      • Increase your Moonlight's capacity by {8|8}%.
        • Moved at 30% to base kit

    On a side note, this would be the opposite of what they did some patches ago, where this card was buffed so that the base kit could be reduced.

    • Excessive Force
      • Increase your maximum Ammo by {3|3}.

    When using Storm of Bullets you go through your ammo pretty quickly, this card is almost a must have.

    • Memento
      • Increase your maximum Ammo by {5|5}.

    Not as strong as it used to be but there's a reason if it was nerfed so much, it's quite a good card.

    • Revitalizing Gem
      • Heal for {60|60} for each enemy hit with Valor.

    Triggers multiple times on an auto-aim ability, this card is severely underrated.

    • Cut and Run
      • Increase your Movement Speed by {10|10}% for 4s after getting a Killing Blow or Elimination.

    High scaling, relatively long duration and triggers on eliminations too. Considering how mobile Maeve is, this card is really strong.

    • Ancient Resolve
      • Increase the duration of Shell Shield by {0.6|0.6}s.

    When using Half Shell the only counterplay for the enemy is waiting for the ability to end, meaning this card becomes extremely valuable (especially next patch, when Carapace won't be mandatory anymore and you can have both this and Barrier Reef at max level).

    • Increase your Movement Speed by {5|5}% for 4s after getting a Killing Blow or Elimination.

    Not as strong as Maeve's, but it triggers on eliminations and Moji really needs that additional mobility.

    Pip

    • Graviton
      • Increase the duration of Explosive Flask's Slow by {0.25|0.25}s.

    Same reason as Buck's Tangled.

    • Tormented Fissure
      • Generate {25|25} Ammo after activating Ignition.

    Kinda of meme-ish, but with how low Ignition's cooldown can get this really grants almost infinite ammo.

    • At The Ready
      • Generate {5|5} Ammo for each enemy hit by Missile Launcher.

    Can trigger multiple times, on an ability with multiple charges, it can noticebly extend Ruckus's firing time before reloading.

    • No Chill
      • Increase your Movement Speed while firing by {5|5}%.

    Personal choice but it makes Ruckus less of a target and a better off-tank, it's only held back by its low scaling.

    • Soul Forge
      • Increase the range at which Restore Soul can target allies by {6|6}%.

    Makes it easier to heal more allies at once, might not be strong but it's definitely really useful.

    • Poise
      • Reduced the Movement Speed penalty while drawing your Longbow by {20|20}%.

    Similar to Ruckus's No Chill but with a much, much better scaling.

    • Quick Smoker
      • Reduce the Cooldown of Smoke Screen by {0.6|0.6}s.

    Confound might be better, but both are really good for a healer Skye setup with Smoke and Dagger. It's not her meta role, of course, but that doesn't mean this card is any less useful for it.

    • Overburn
      • Flare lasts {0.6|0.6}s longer.

    I know nowadays Strix is basically a quick-scoping flank champion, but longer reveals are quite nice to have when playing defensively, even if it's just 1 more second.

    • Strength of Stone
      • Reduce your damage taken by up to {4|4}% based on the number of Calamity Blast charges you have stored.

    Alongside It Follows and Undying this can make Terminus a literall monster to go against. Keeping charges stored is not the meta playstyle but if you do this card is quite great.

    • Forsaken
      • Generate {10|10}% of a Calamity Blast charge for each enemy hit with Massacre Axe.

    Personal choice, in small maps or against multible tanks Power Siphon its harder to use so having a secondary source of charges is great, especially since each swing can trigger its effect multiple times.

    • Guerrilla Warfare
      • Reduce the Cooldown of Frag Grenade by {0.2|0.2}s every 1s while Hustle is active.

    This is sooooo good both as a bonus for Cardio, since you're running a lot anyways, and as a Grenade reset for Shrapnel, I'll die on this hill defending this card 😠

    • Unchecked Ambition
      • Hitting an enemy with a weapon shot has a {12|12}% chance to not consume Ammo.

    I hate it but infinite ammo Vivian is too strong to get rid of either this card or Hidden Reserves...

    Zhin

    • Heartless
      • Increase your Movement Speed by {10|10}% for 4s after getting a Killing Blow.

    Similar to Cut and Run but worst, it still is quite good considering Zhin's role as a high mobility flank.



  • Oh dear...

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    • Equivalent Exchange (Q):
      • Heal for {10|10}% of the damage Absorbed by Reversal.

    Combined with Disrupt or Seething Hatred this gets really good in Reversal builds, such as when playing Godslayer, especially when going against must-hold-left-click champions (Raum, Dredge, Vivian, etc.).

    I have yet to see anyone rock this card. I even checked Paladins card statistics to see which card is least popular. I did this with every champion I am not playing very often.

    This is his least picked, and one of the lowest winrate cards he has.

    • Castle Forged
      • Reduce the Cooldown of Kinetic Burst by {0.6|0.6}s.

    Ash has many builds that revolve around Kinetic Burst (Self-heal, Shield reset, Booper, etc.) so this card is quite common.

    Yeah I initially wanted to move it to base kit but ash.. doesn't... need... a.. buff...

    I know the NOTE2 disclaimer but even with that in mind I didn't try to break the balance, you know?

    • Infinity Engine
      • Your weapon doesn't consume Ammo for {2|2}s after activating Stasis Field.

    Personal choice, Atlas' weapon sucks ammo-wise, so I really really like this card especially considering how much it scales up.

    There's a card that can give you half of your mag after you hit a shot. This card is worthless and outclasses by that one.

    • Tangled
      • Increase the duration of Net Shot by {0.3|0.3}s.

    For the Ensnare build, at level 3 this grants an additional shot with bonus damage, which is obviously a big thing

    I actually had some problems with old champions. They have fairly even out card choices, probably because devs actually put out some effort into making them good. I felt like it was the least used of his net cards. Maybe a better solution would be moving it to the Netshot Talent.

    • Kinetics
      • Generate {1|1} Ammo for each enemy hit by Blast Shot.
        It can trigger multiple times, even at low level it can completely refill her ammo.

    See above. She already has max ammo Card so I figured she doesn't need this one. Even tho I can clearly see this one's a little bit better than max ammo, the other 3 cards are better imo, I'd rather get rid of Fatal Sign than the Max ammo card.

    • Sky Warden
      • Heal for {125|125} after hitting an enemy with Disengage.

    Unless you're going for Big Game, you won't use Disengage much offensively (except for knocking off the map), so having such a big heal (up to 625) on the ability turns it into a reliable self-heal.

    One of her least picked, worst winrate cards according to statistics.

    • Fatal Sign
      • Increase your Reload Speed by {12|12}% for 5s after getting an Elimination.

    And this one has even worse stats than the disengage heal one.

    • Abyssal Shift
      • Reduce your damage taken by {3|3}% while your Projection is out.

    If you use Projection offensively without activating the teleport this sinergizes quite well. Not an high DR, but for a healer its quite decent.

    No, this card just blows. All of his projection cards are absolute trash but I felt like this one takes the cake.

    Dredge:

    • Blow the Man Down
      • Enemies hit by Harpoon’s Slow have their Movement Speed reduced by an additional {6|6}%.

    It can basically turn all enemies hit into sitting ducks, at max level Harpoon becomes one of the strongest slows in the game.

    Which is why I removed it. This is absolute cancer to go against and Dredge really doesn't need it. Thanks for giving my explanation so I didn't have to write it down.

    Drogoz

    • Hyper Boost
      • Restore {4|4}% of your Booster fuel each time Salvo hits an enemy.

    At just level 2 a full Salvo can restore most of your fuel (and Salvo can be fully reset !), for W.Y.R.M. builds this is really good.

    Or you can just run max booster + booster consumption rate like every other drogoz player and stop using Salvo ability as a whole?

    • Altitude
      • Restore {20|20}% of your maximum Booster fuel after getting a Killing Blow or Elimination.

    Same as the above, this the top for infinite flight with W.Y.R.M Jets, especially considering how strong it scales and the fact that it can trigger on eliminations too.

    Or just go for the Thrust reset card and you will get pretty much the same effect because after you thrusted, which is already a lot of distance covered, you also regained a portion of your fuel thanks to it.

    • Pyre
      • Increase your maximum Ammo by {15|15}.

    Each level is basically an additional second you can fire. Considering Fernando's low damage and high reload time this is really useful even as a filler card.

    You cannot be serious here. His reload time is one of the fastest things in this game next to Vivian Main's thought process. Don't expend 100 ammo and he will reload like 60% faster. He can reload almost 50% of his mag if you accidentally press Charge button, meaning he has almost no downtime on his dmg output.

    • Hallowed Sight
      • Generate {10|10}% Wrath after hitting an enemy with Pyre Strike.

    After her nerf she really needs Wrath gen. If you're going for a damage oriented build this is much better than Ruthless, especially with Exterminate, since it triggers the effect multiple times so even at low level landing a Pyre Strike fills a lot of your Wrath.

    This card choice is more of me being enemy of Exterminate and supporter of Celerity. I know it procs multiple times, but I feel like Exterminate as a whole is a noob trap talent due to this only adding 400 dmg at cost of multiple target stunning potenential, which is why I think that if you want to run pure dmg you're better of Cherish w/ Ruthless for a very consistent Wraith uptime.

    • Light of Dawn
      • Apply a {35|35}-Health Shield for 2s to allies affected by Kindle Soul.

    I know it got nerfed to the ground, but I'd rather see it buffed again than removed, it was a really good card.

    It was a mustpick card. With the principle of getting rid of mustpicks, no I don't think it would stay if we were to remove 1 card per category.

    • Chopper
      • Heal for {100|100} after hitting an enemy with Crippling Throw.

    If I'm not mistaken, this triggers multiple times with Deep Roots, leading to a pretty massive self heal.

    I have yet to see anyone use this Card. I didn't know it existed untill I created this topic...

    Overall It seemed to have terrible winrate and pickrate stats all around other than when used as 1pointer. Still, other RMB cards seemed both stronger and more fun than this one.

    • Elemental Barrier
      • Heal for {50|50} after using Elemental Shift.

    Apparently not so strong, but Elemental Shift's cooldown can be reduced down to nothing (and with next update even more !) so this basically becomes a free heal whenever she wants.

    As Imani main, I can tell you that this card is not worth it because you spend so much time doing nothing, at very high point cost. A better way to create sustainy loadout is via her Glide heal + glide reset cards. You get a lot sustain, but also tons of mobility with pretty much same point investment.

    • Protectors
      • Regenerate {2|2}% Moonlight every 1s while within 30 units of Luna.
    • Sanctum of Faith
      • Regenerate {1|1}% Moonlight every 1s when not using Moonlight.

    I know she also has Moonlight Garden, but each one of this cards has its ideal situation. Since Io needs as much Moonlight regen as she can (being her healing source), all of them are useful.

    • Moonwalk
      • Increase your Moonlight's capacity by {8|8}%.
        • Moved at 30% to base kit

    On a side note, this would be the opposite of what they did some patches ago, where this card was buffed so that the base kit could be reduced.

    Okay so Io was one of the exceptions I talked about. She is an overperforming champion imo so I wanted to change few things about her, mainly for the worse but make her more fun too, so to speak?

    Firstly, I wanted to remove protectors because it is a noobtrap card that gives you a bad habbit of improperly positioning her dog.

    Then, I wanted to remove as many Moonlight cards as she could possibly have, because they are her most picked ones. It's like if any other support had multiple heal CD cards. They are unncessary multiple mustpick cards that hinder her choices.

    Since I couldn't remove all of them I decided to keep the Moonlight on LMB because it encourages a more active gameplay. This is also indirectly buffed by the max moonlight change as well - this card only takes base moonlight capability in consideration, the more base moonlight the more this card gives.

    • Excessive Force
      • Increase your maximum Ammo by {3|3}.

    When using Storm of Bullets you go through your ammo pretty quickly, this card is almost a must have.

    Well I actually didn't know Khan's card value. I played him like 3 times over the entirety of this game and is my least played champion. Didn't know ammo cards are so important to him since they are throwpicks for almost all other tanks.

    I might take a second look at Khan's cards.

    • Memento
      • Increase your maximum Ammo by {5|5}.

    Not as strong as it used to be but there's a reason if it was nerfed so much, it's quite a good card.

    Just pick Ammo/sec on F and enjoy infinite ammo for 4s.

    • Revitalizing Gem
      • Heal for {60|60} for each enemy hit with Valor.

    Triggers multiple times on an auto-aim ability, this card is severely underrated.

    Not sure if underrated, but according to stats it's clearly underpicked.

    • Cut and Run
      • Increase your Movement Speed by {10|10}% for 4s after getting a Killing Blow or Elimination.

    High scaling, relatively long duration and triggers on eliminations too. Considering how mobile Maeve is, this card is really strong.

    Actually it's fairly underpicked and just slightly below average in winrates. I feel like HP,DR and obviously the so-called OP Predations just have so much more value over this.

    • Ancient Resolve
      • Increase the duration of Shell Shield by {0.6|0.6}s.

    When using Half Shell the only counterplay for the enemy is waiting for the ability to end, meaning this card becomes extremely valuable (especially next patch, when Carapace won't be mandatory anymore and you can have both this and Barrier Reef at max level).

    This is another card that I picked because it's awful to go against. I am already very frustrated with Makoa's Hooks and the fact I can't shoot when his shield is out. Please let this suffering be as low duration as possible.

    • Increase your Movement Speed by {5|5}% for 4s after getting a Killing Blow or Elimination.

    Not as strong as Maeve's, but it triggers on eliminations and Moji really needs that additional mobility.

    Google Moji Bunnyhop Tech and stop worrying about her mobility.

    This is arguably worst moji Card next to Harmonious...

    She has similar move speed card for just HITTING her shots. And if you want mobility after an elim - pick Peppy and enjoy free scamper.

    Pip

    • Graviton
      • Increase the duration of Explosive Flask's Slow by {0.25|0.25}s.

    Same reason as Buck's Tangled.

    Except the "same reason as Buck" doesn't apply to Pip, because unlike Buck's Netshot talent, Pip's Catalyst has fixed duration and does not depend on slow duration. So I am not sure what do you mean by that.

    This card is okay in powerlevel but is another card that is just pure atrocity to be on the receiving end. I actually use this card maxed with RMB CD maxed on Dmg pip build but that's because I have days when I hate people and want to see them suffer. But I'd rather have this thing removed than to continuously break Geneva Convention.

    • Tormented Fissure
      • Generate {25|25} Ammo after activating Ignition.

    Kinda of meme-ish, but with how low Ignition's cooldown can get this really grants almost infinite ammo.

    Wow, Infinite ammo. Very useful considering how low his magazine size is. /s

    I actually heard Raum has a tech that allows him to reload while in his charging ability. I don't know, I don't play Raum but saw it in one of videos where one person was using this quite consistently. So you can have ammo efficiency without this card anyway.

    • At The Ready
      • Generate {5|5} Ammo for each enemy hit by Missile Launcher.

    Can trigger multiple times, on an ability with multiple charges, it can noticebly extend Ruckus's firing time before reloading.

    He has other ammo card and his other Missile cards are pretty solid.

    • No Chill
      • Increase your Movement Speed while firing by {5|5}%.

    Personal choice but it makes Ruckus less of a target and a better off-tank, it's only held back by its low scaling.

    Held Back is a great word for it. I actually picked this one because I remember Vex saying it's very bad and should never be picked. Hm... I wonder if he still plays this game.

    • Soul Forge
      • Increase the range at which Restore Soul can target allies by {6|6}%.

    Makes it easier to heal more allies at once, might not be strong but it's definitely really useful.

    you lost me here. I suggest you read my Seris guide (link in my signature) because I don't even want to bother explaining it for the millionth of time. Basically, a ridiculous noob trap.

    • Poise
      • Reduced the Movement Speed penalty while drawing your Longbow by {20|20}%.

    Similar to Ruckus's No Chill but with a much, much better scaling.

    And this is why I wanted to remove all noob traps.

    Sha lin is slowed only 10% while drawing his bow, meaning this card adds 2% move speed/lvl while drawing bow, which is only 0.5%/lvl higher than Ruckus because ruckus is slowed by 30%.

    You can use that 3/3% move speed card to achieve almost same effect, but just at lvl 3, and also get small move speed bonus while you're not drawing your bow...

    • Quick Smoker
      • Reduce the Cooldown of Smoke Screen by {0.6|0.6}s.

    Confound might be better, but both are really good for a healer Skye setup with Smoke and Dagger. It's not her meta role, of course, but that doesn't mean this card is any less useful for it.

    They are but as I said, I wanted to remove cards that are doing the same purpose. It's not like you pick both of them at the same time just to make Skye heals viable.

    • Overburn
      • Flare lasts {0.6|0.6}s longer.

    I know nowadays Strix is basically a quick-scoping flank champion, but longer reveals are quite nice to have when playing defensively, even if it's just 1 more second.

    Longer reveals are quite cancer too. I picked it for the unfun reasons. Do you remember 2mark tyra meta? Shivers..

    • Strength of Stone
      • Reduce your damage taken by up to {4|4}% based on the number of Calamity Blast charges you have stored.

    Alongside It Follows and Undying this can make Terminus a literall monster to go against. Keeping charges stored is not the meta playstyle but if you do this card is quite great.

    Yeah this was another problematic one because all of his RMB cards are so very good and I had no idea what to do.

    Maybe we could move it to the "Undying" talent or sth.

    • Forsaken
      • Generate {10|10}% of a Calamity Blast charge for each enemy hit with Massacre Axe.

    Personal choice, in small maps or against multible tanks Power Siphon its harder to use so having a secondary source of charges is great, especially since each swing can trigger its effect multiple times.

    Terminus has great card choices. But this one is not one of them.

    • Guerrilla Warfare
      • Reduce the Cooldown of Frag Grenade by {0.2|0.2}s every 1s while Hustle is active.

    This is sooooo good both as a bonus for Cardio, since you're running a lot anyways, and as a Grenade reset for Shrapnel, I'll die on this hill defending this card 😠

    His worst Winrate Card out of all he has. That's probably because peopel are wasting time resetting the grenades by doing literally NOTHING. This is another noobtrap card that teaches Viktor players to do nothing to reset his grenades, when he has a card that resets his grenade after hitting an grenade.....

    Even with grenade talent it seems to be not very good winrate wise which was a very interesting find to me. But yeah, it only proves to be good 1pointer for burst mode, statwise, for some reason.

    • Unchecked Ambition
      • Hitting an enemy with a weapon shot has a {12|12}% chance to not consume Ammo.

    I hate it but infinite ammo Vivian is too strong to get rid of either this card or Hidden Reserves...

    I mean isn't that the reason why it should be removed?

    Zhin

    • Heartless
      • Increase your Movement Speed by {10|10}% for 4s after getting a Killing Blow.

    Similar to Cut and Run but worst, it still is quite good considering Zhin's role as a high mobility flank.

    Or pick the billow one and get a much better effect.



  • @TTraw said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    I have yet to see anyone rock this card. I even checked Paladins card statistics to see which card is least popular. I did this with every champion I am not playing very often.

    Well, I'm that one person, do you really want to take away my fun ? ☹
    Jokes aside, the point is that as long as someone actually uses a card, that card isn't irrelevant. By removing it we're not just removing a redundant thing that nobody will miss, we'd actually be hindering somebody's playstyle. This applies on all the discussion, less cards would certainly be more clear etc. but it would also mean less customization, which is arguably what kept Paladins well out of the graveyard of Hero Shooters killed by that one competitor. Even if it'd concern just some hundreds players, is it really worth and justified to reduce the overall number of cards, is the gain more than the sacrifice ?

    Yeah I initially wanted to move it to base kit but ash.. doesn't... need... a.. buff...

    I know the NOTE2 disclaimer but even with that in mind I didn't try to break the balance, you know?
    See above. She already has max ammo Card so I figured she doesn't need this one. Even tho I can clearly see this one's a little bit better than max ammo, the other 3 cards are better imo, I'd rather get rid of Fatal Sign than the Max ammo card.

    Yes, I absolutely agree, but still stands the problem that there are not enough totally useless cards to purge from the game. Sacrificing some good ones would be required, like this ones.

    I actually had some problems with old champions. They have fairly even out card choices, probably because devs actually put out some effort into making them good. I felt like it was the least used of his net cards. Maybe a better solution would be moving it to the Netshot Talent.

    Like above, it's a good card that would be either sacrificed or would have be moved to base/talent, meaning it's not worth the trouble of removing it because we'd end up reducing the number of cards just for the sake of it.

    One of her least picked, worst winrate cards according to statistics.

    Least picked but not unpicked. Again, does the gain frome removing it justify taking it away from the people who use it ?

    And this one has even worse stats than the disengage heal one.

    That's up to debate, I personally think it's pretty good compared to most reload cards, enough to make it a not-useless card.

    Which is why I removed it. This is absolute cancer to go against and Dredge really doesn't need it. Thanks for giving my explanation so I didn't have to write it down.

    I'm absolutely all about nerfing Dredge, but that doesn't take away the fact that this is a good card and we'd be getting rid of it for no reason other than the fact we have to remove one.

    Or you can just run max booster + booster consumption rate like every other drogoz player and stop using Salvo ability as a whole?

    Stop using Salvo ? Isn't that everything Drogoz players can do ? (Jk, obviously)

    Or just go for the Thrust reset card and you will get pretty much the same effect because after you thrusted, which is already a lot of distance covered, you also regained a portion of your fuel thanks to it.

    Fair enough, I just think this card triggers more often than the other, which is why I prefer it.

    You cannot be serious here. His reload time is one of the fastest things in this game next to Vivian Main's thought process. Don't expend 100 ammo and he will reload like 60% faster. He can reload almost 50% of his mag if you accidentally press Charge button, meaning he has almost no downtime on his dmg output.

    I am serious but probably didn't explain myself well, sorry. His reload time is low when running out of ammo, and this card increases the time before that happens. Of course you can stop before and gen it faster, but my point was just when considering that situation. (Really digging the Vivian analogy, that made me chuckle)

    This card choice is more of me being enemy of Exterminate and supporter of Celerity. I know it procs multiple times, but I feel like Exterminate as a whole is a noob trap talent due to this only adding 400 dmg at cost of multiple target stunning potenential, which is why I think that if you want to run pure dmg you're better of Cherish w/ Ruthless for a very consistent Wraith uptime.

    I'll give you this one and won't even try to argue, I too miss Celerity big time....

    I have yet to see anyone use this Card. I didn't know it existed untill I created this topic...
    Overall It seemed to have terrible winrate and pickrate stats all around other than when used as 1pointer. Still, other RMB cards seemed both stronger and more fun than this one.

    Well, once again I'll raise my hand, I might be the odd one out who uses it 😅

    As Imani main, I can tell you that this card is not worth it because you spend so much time doing nothing, at very high point cost. A better way to create sustainy loadout is via her Glide heal + glide reset cards. You get a lot sustain, but also tons of mobility with pretty much same point investment.

    Yes, same points but double the cards, plus you cannot stay hidden and use it as much as you want, you have to glide and expose yourself. However I'll admit you're surely more expert than me with Imani, so I'll go with you on this one.

    Okay so Io was one of the exceptions I talked about. She is an overperforming champion imo so I wanted to change few things about her, mainly for the worse but make her more fun too, so to speak? [...]

    Yeah, I thought that too. Still, once more we'd be making a sacrifice to fit the plan, going back to my question "Is the benefit from reducing the number of cards worth the sacrifice of good cards and customization ?"

    Well I actually didn't know Khan's card value. I played him like 3 times over the entirety of this game and is my least played champion. Didn't know ammo cards are so important to him since they are throwpicks for almost all other tanks.

    I know, this is quite an exception, generally tanks indeed don't really need extra ammo. However Khan doesn't have the mag size to properly back up the firerate of SoB, especially since they nerfed its value.

    Just pick Ammo/sec on F and enjoy infinite ammo for 4s.

    Fair enough, I usually pick them both, just to give cancer to anyone playing in the same match.

    Not sure if underrated, but according to stats it's clearly underpicked.

    Which is unfortunate, but it's the same problem as with all underpicked cards: if a card it's underpicked wouldn't it be better to try and buff it, instead of just going "Whep, nothing we can do, let's just remove it" ?

    Actually it's fairly underpicked and just slightly below average in winrates. I feel like HP,DR and obviously the so-called OP Predations just have so much more value over this.

    Hey, better idea, why don't we remove Predation instead ? It's much weaker and absolutely underpicked, trust me, I swear. Can we remove that, pretty pretty please ? 🥺

    This is another card that I picked because it's awful to go against. I am already very frustrated with Makoa's Hooks and the fact I can't shoot when his shield is out. Please let this suffering be as low duration as possible.

    I know, I really wish so many annoying abilities and cards could be toned down, but Half Shell Makoa is just the best counter to the heavy spam that afflicts the game so I don't want it to go until the former isn't reduced as well...

    Except the "same reason as Buck" doesn't apply to Pip, because unlike Buck's Netshot talent, Pip's Catalyst has fixed duration and does not depend on slow duration. So I am not sure what do you mean by that.

    Oh yes, sorry, I was just reffering to its general slow, not for Catalyst. That's pretty much the ability's only function when going for healer Pip, so being able to buff it makes slightly more worth it the bother to use it.

    This card is okay in powerlevel but is another card that is just pure atrocity to be on the receiving end. I actually use this card maxed with RMB CD maxed on Dmg pip build but that's because I have days when I hate people and want to see them suffer. But I'd rather have this thing removed than to continuously break Geneva Convention.

    Can I get an Amen for this truth-speaking man, folks ?

    Wow, Infinite ammo. Very useful considering how low his magazine size is.

    Hey, sometimes you just want to turn off the brain and hold down leftclick forever but Vivian is already picked...

    Held Back is a great word for it. I actually picked this one because I remember Vex saying it's very bad and should never be picked. Hm... I wonder if he still plays this game.

    Again, wouldn't it be better to buff all this cards rather than removing them ?

    you lost me here. I suggest you read my Seris guide (link in my signature) because I don't even want to bother explaining it for the millionth of time. Basically, a ridiculous noob trap.

    Butter me up and call me a noob then, I'm definitely gonna have to look at that guide 😬

    And this is why I wanted to remove all noob traps.
    Sha lin is slowed only 10% while drawing his bow, meaning this card adds 2% move speed/lvl while drawing bow, which is only 0.5%/lvl higher than Ruckus because ruckus is slowed by 30%.

    Big oof from my part, you're definitely right on this one.

    They are but as I said, I wanted to remove cards that are doing the same purpose. It's not like you pick both of them at the same time just to make Skye heals viable.

    Just because one is good does it mean two isn't better ? I understand removing cards with similar effects but they're not really the same, they apply in different ways, meaning you can prefer one or the other or both.

    Longer reveals are quite cancer too. I picked it for the unfun reasons. Do you remember 2mark tyra meta? Shivers..

    Ouch, you got me, I was and still am one of those Tyras, I enjoy Stealth Champions' tears 😅

    Yeah this was another problematic one because all of his RMB cards are so very good and I had no idea what to do.

    Maybe we could move it to the "Undying" talent or sth.

    I was gonna say that this is again the problem of "You're all good but one of you must go, I'm sorry kids" but I really like the idea of putting it into the talent.

    His worst Winrate Card out of all he has. That's probably because peopel are wasting time resetting the grenades by doing literally NOTHING. This is another noobtrap card that teaches Viktor players to do nothing to reset his grenades, when he has a card that resets his grenade after hitting an grenade.....

    Or you could have them both, it's not like Viktors use much brain anyways 😏

    I mean isn't that the reason why it should be removed?

    I absolutely agree and while we're at it we could remove the champion altogheter. But seriously, from an unbiased point of view this is a good card and removing it would once more be just a sacrifice for the greater good.

    Overall I think there aren't enough "bad" cards to carry on the overall number reduction without having to make compromises, which is the main problem of this idea imo. It would be better to balance the weak and the strong cards and to rework the useless ones, while keeping intact or even improving the great customization that's the biggest strength of the game.



  • cards have good and bad cards, if there are no bad cards then there is no such thing as a bad loadout...

    If you dont have bad you cannot feel good about creating something that works.

    Also i find it fun to try and find uses for cards no one uses.

    The exploration of the cards is half the fun of the game. It should not be changed.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    @TTraw said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    I have yet to see anyone rock this card. I even checked Paladins card statistics to see which card is least popular. I did this with every champion I am not playing very often.

    Well, I'm that one person, do you really want to take away my fun ? ☹
    Jokes aside, the point is that as long as someone actually uses a card, that card isn't irrelevant. By removing it we're not just removing a redundant thing that nobody will miss, we'd actually be hindering somebody's playstyle. This applies on all the discussion, less cards would certainly be more clear etc. but it would also mean less customization, which is arguably what kept Paladins well out of the graveyard of Hero Shooters killed by that one competitor. Even if it'd concern just some hundreds players, is it really worth and justified to reduce the overall number of cards, is the gain more than the sacrifice ?

    When it comes to Androxus I initially wanted to remove that Q CD card and move 3s to base kit since he has 2 cards that reduce cooldown of his Reversal.

    Then I slapped myself in the face and reminded that it is ANDRO we're talking about and while I might slip away with moving dash distance to base kit without people oiling their pitchforks, I would sure as hell enjoy having another pair of nostrills if I were to buff andro TWICE.

    I actually had some problems with old champions. They have fairly even out card choices, probably because devs actually put out some effort into making them good. I felt like it was the least used of his net cards. Maybe a better solution would be moving it to the Netshot Talent.

    Like above, it's a good card that would be either sacrificed or would have be moved to base/talent, meaning it's not worth the trouble of removing it because we'd end up reducing the number of cards just for the sake of it.

    I mean, Netshot Buck is considered to be his weakest playstyle so it could use a small boost to effectiveness.

    One of her least picked, worst winrate cards according to statistics.

    Least picked but not unpicked. Again, does the gain frome removing it justify taking it away from the people who use it ?

    I'd like to call it "Removing all sharp objects from the baby's vicinity" and save some Cassie's some Winrate drops lol.

    And this one has even worse stats than the disengage heal one.

    That's up to debate, I personally think it's pretty good compared to most reload cards, enough to make it a not-useless card.

    There's nothing to debate, this card is weak according to stats, I literally picked this card basing on it's very low statistics.

    Which is why I removed it. This is absolute cancer to go against and Dredge really doesn't need it. Thanks for giving my explanation so I didn't have to write it down.

    I'm absolutely all about nerfing Dredge, but that doesn't take away the fact that this is a good card and we'd be getting rid of it for no reason other than the fact we have to remove one.

    Well one of the ideas behind this change was also to remove frustrating stuff. So I didn't pick it for "no good reason" and a lot of players would create Church for me for removing such bullcrap stuff like this one.

    Or you can just run max booster + booster consumption rate like every other drogoz player and stop using Salvo ability as a whole?

    Stop using Salvo ? Isn't that everything Drogoz players can do ? (Jk, obviously)

    I am still waiting for Salvo buffs.

    You cannot be serious here. His reload time is one of the fastest things in this game next to Vivian Main's thought process. Don't expend 100 ammo and he will reload like 60% faster. He can reload almost 50% of his mag if you accidentally press Charge button, meaning he has almost no downtime on his dmg output.

    I am serious but probably didn't explain myself well, sorry. His reload time is low when running out of ammo, and this card increases the time before that happens. Of course you can stop before and gen it faster, but my point was just when considering that situation. (Really digging the Vivian analogy, that made me chuckle)

    Running out of ammo on Nando, when if you activate his Fireball or charge he will start regenerating part of his ammo automatically, is quite inexcusable to me.

    As Imani main, I can tell you that this card is not worth it because you spend so much time doing nothing, at very high point cost. A better way to create sustainy loadout is via her Glide heal + glide reset cards. You get a lot sustain, but also tons of mobility with pretty much same point investment.

    Yes, same points but double the cards, plus you cannot stay hidden and use it as much as you want, you have to glide and expose yourself. However I'll admit you're surely more expert than me with Imani, so I'll go with you on this one.

    I wouldnt exactly say double the cards, but I guess some people like spamming abilities every 1s at cost of 10 points to give them equivalent of not taking damage for 4s....

    Okay so Io was one of the exceptions I talked about. She is an overperforming champion imo so I wanted to change few things about her, mainly for the worse but make her more fun too, so to speak? [...]

    Yeah, I thought that too. Still, once more we'd be making a sacrifice to fit the plan, going back to my question "Is the benefit from reducing the number of cards worth the sacrifice of good cards and customization ?"

    You don't sacrifice customization by removing must pick cards. This Io would have more cards to choose from because now you will have to consider only 1 Moonlight card instead of being forced to take at least 2 moonlight cards out of 4 that exist, freeing up 1 of your cards slots and encouraging active gameplay.

    Well I actually didn't know Khan's card value. I played him like 3 times over the entirety of this game and is my least played champion. Didn't know ammo cards are so important to him since they are throwpicks for almost all other tanks.

    I know, this is quite an exception, generally tanks indeed don't really need extra ammo. However Khan doesn't have the mag size to properly back up the firerate of SoB, especially since they nerfed the bonus ammo in the talent itself.

    This is kind of embarassing because I checked all cards statistic for champion except for Khan because "hurr durr ammo cards on tanks".

    Now I don't know what would be a good card to remove. Gotta check all his cards stats I guess...

    Actually it's fairly underpicked and just slightly below average in winrates. I feel like HP,DR and obviously the so-called OP Predations just have so much more value over this.

    Hey, better idea, why don't we remove Predation instead ? It's much weaker and absolutely underpicked, trust me, I swear. Can we remove that, pretty pretty please ? 🥺

    There's too many Maeve mains on reddit for me to suggest this.

    This is another card that I picked because it's awful to go against. I am already very frustrated with Makoa's Hooks and the fact I can't shoot when his shield is out. Please let this suffering be as low duration as possible.

    I know, I really wish so many annoying abilities and cards could be toned down, but Half Shell Makoa is just the best counter to the heavy spam that afflicts the game so I don't want it to go until the former isn't reduced as well...

    Terminus works too.

    Except the "same reason as Buck" doesn't apply to Pip, because unlike Buck's Netshot talent, Pip's Catalyst has fixed duration and does not depend on slow duration. So I am not sure what do you mean by that.

    Oh yes, sorry, I was just reffering to its general slow, not for Catalyst. That's pretty much the ability's only function when going for healer Pip, so being able to buff it makes slightly more worth it the bother to use it.

    How do you fit that card on healing Pip? You reallly can't with all the other cards needed...

    They are but as I said, I wanted to remove cards that are doing the same purpose. It's not like you pick both of them at the same time just to make Skye heals viable.

    Just because one is good does it mean two isn't better ? I understand removing cards with similar effects but they're not really the same, they apply in different ways, meaning you can prefer one or the other or both.

    I just don't think having multiple cards that do the same when all people do is pick 1 of them and call it a day is a good idea.

    We could give Skye decks of 16 cards when every single one of them reduces the cooldown of Poison bolt by 1s and you would see an even choice in cards (but even then some cards would have higher pickrate than other still lmao). Doesn't mean it's particularly exciting or well designed.

    I mean isn't that the reason why it should be removed?

    I absolutely agree and while we're at it we could remove the champion altogheter. But seriously, from an unbiased point of view this is a good card and removing it would once more be just a sacrifice for the greater good.

    More like a bj to a balance of this game. I don't know about you but I find a card, that encourages ductaping left side of your computer mouse, kind of a bad design choice.


    Overall I think there aren't enough "bad" cards to carry on the overall number reduction without having to make compromises, which is the main problem of this idea imo. It would be better to balance the weak and the strong cards and to rework the useless ones, while keeping intact or even improving the great customization that's the biggest strength of the game.

    It's not that there aren't enough "bad" cards. Because I did not just look for a bad cards. I looked for bad cards, must pick cards, and cards that when moved to base kit would help underperforming champions/playstyle.

    Out of all those suggestions there were:

    • about 6 champions that were hurt by these changes (Andro, Ash, Buck, Cassie, Term, Khan)

    which aligns with my statement that about 90% of the cast wouldn't even care about this change.

    BUT

    • About 17 mustpick cards removed
    • About 12 changes that would help underperforming champions or playstyles
    • About 5 frustrating cards removed from the game
    • And at least 3-4 noobtrap cards yeeted deleted

    I don't know about you but that sounds like more good than harm to the balance to the game. Then there's the fix of the issue I mentioned earlier, and that is being overwhelmed by the amount of choices new players are tackled with. Also less visual clutter. And less chance of creating illussions of choice, where some cards are just here for the text and graphics only.

    Now, would EMojo go for it? Probably not.

    Like, they would probably be happy to do this because less work for them in the future. Less time coding cards, less time spending thinking and designing cards, less time spent creating art for the cards, lesser probability they will tuck up with some broken card design which then will take their resources to fix it.

    But considering how community is always so annoyed each time they remove something from the game (although I totally agree most of the time with community here) they would probably try not to anger them ever again.


    I need to reformat all my main post's cards because it's impossible to scroll through all of this balance suggestions. lol



  • @TTraw when you cut depth to cater to beginners it will gut the game. Most beginners won't even stick around and those that will will learn how to make a deck. Its a bad idea.



  • @Christlike The real question is if I really cut the depth here or simple expose of things that are in the end "Illusion of choice". Because I believe in some cases I actually enlarged the customization depth on certain champions.

    Let me quote myself here:

    @TTraw said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    Out of all those suggestions there were:

    • about 6 champions that were hurt by these changes (Andro, Ash, Buck, Cassie, Term, Khan)

    which aligns with my statement that about 90% of the cast wouldn't even care about this change.

    BUT

    • About 17 mustpick cards removed
    • About 12 changes that would help underperforming champions or playstyles
    • About 5 frustrating cards removed from the game
    • And at least 3-4 noobtrap cards yeeted deleted

    I don't know about you but that sounds like more good than harm to the balance to the game. Then there's the fix of the issue I mentioned earlier, and that is being overwhelmed by the amount of choices new players are tackled with. Also less visual clutter. And less chance of creating illussions of choice, where some cards are just here for the text and graphics only.

    When you remove mustpicks, the amount of cards that you can personally choose from and fit into your deck doesn't decrease, it increases.



  • @TTraw this is all coming from personal frustrations though. Few people are having those problems. You're the minority with taking cards away. You're just good at arguing lol. Really is no reason for it. Removing must picks? Even must picks are just must for the common play style of said champ. Though theres a meta its all extremely subjective still.



  • @TTraw
    Why can't your friends or new players just pick one of the pre-made decks like I do. No stress, and by the way love the dramatic Exhausting and Parilyzing bit lol



  • bad cards are part of the fun, if all the cards were good it would make all. loadouts good.

    playing and learning the card system is half the fun of the game and a large part of why i still play.



  • @Christlike How do you know how much people have this problem? It's true that the game became very complex. There is no decent description what cards actually do. Technical terms like "deployable". Internal cooldowns of cards. If the loadout I create by the descriptions doesn't do what I expect that could be frustrating.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 that's your oversight though. Not the games problem. They are clear enough and some things you have to experiment with etc. I didn't know up until a couple days ago that they put CD on some cards for some champs. Happend during my time off. Have 800+ hours into the game and that was totally new to me.

    The point is i dont think it's a good idea to neutere the game to make things more simple for the minority. I know it isn't a major problem because it's born out of personal issues. Not technical gameplay stuff.



  • @Christlike Obviously a major problem that should be fixed since it will frustrate new players.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 its only frustrating you.



  • @Shadowpuppy said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    cards have good and bad cards, if there are no bad cards then there is no such thing as a bad loadout...
    If you dont have bad you cannot feel good about creating something that works.

    This change does not remove all the bad and good cards. Just some of them to encourage more uses of the other cards. There's imo currently too much mustpicks and worthless cards rn.

    Also i find it fun to try and find uses for cards no one uses.
    The exploration of the cards is half the fun of the game. It should not be changed.

    Of course I agree here! And in case you didn't notice, I am a big fan of making non-meta things work.

    My main damage is Mana Rift Imani, which is alone one of the most underplayed things in this game.

    My Nando loadout uses

    • Fireball CD 2
    • Speed on Fireball 4
    • Speed on Charge 4
    • CD reduction of charge for each enemy hit by Fireball 4
    • Charge reduction after shield is damaged 1

    And this is honestly the only way I play him and noone else seems to use these cards in tandem with eachother.

    Before season3 shifted Seris meta, I was one of the few Soul Collector mains w/Umbral Gait. UGait was considered one of her worst cards (even tho I thought it was her best even at that time). This is the only card I was ever complained ab out having in my loadout! Think about that for a second! Heck, I even didn't use Veil at that time and still managed to have 60% winrate on her. Other than Soul Forge, I literally used her least used cards. Spirit leech, bane, ugait. Those all were almost never picked at that time.

    For furia, I smax fire siphon card. Noone uses it but I think its very powerful. My Corvus loadout doesnt use speed boost card - I smax Priority Targets that noone uses. And so on.

    As you can see, I really focus on making my builds unique and personalized while still making them work.

    However there's no denying that certain cards cannot be removed from your deck, like Grand Design or old Soul Forge, and some cards are just worthless in value. Dusk Walker reduces CD by 3s, Fade To Black reduces the same cd by 4 each time Seris heals a target....

    There's clear discrepancy between cards and removing some of them is one way to solve the issue.


    @Christlike said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    this is all coming from personal frustrations though. Few people are having those problems. You're the minority with taking cards away.

    I might be minority in suggesting this controversial solution, but this issue is definitely NOT a minority issue. There's tons of people complaining how to play certain champion you must accept that sacrificing one or two cards slots is a must to play champion at basic level.

    You're just good at arguing lol.

    LOL. I wish I heard that irl.

    Really is no reason for it. Removing must picks? Even must picks are just must for the common play style of said champ. Though theres a meta its all extremely subjective still.

    I was saying the same when old Soul Forge 5 existed, arguing that Seris needs to have it because we need to differentiate between DPSeris and healing Seris.

    Now that they reworked it into something else and moved to base kit, Seris has never felt so good. She has more choices to pick from, and even though not all cards are currently viable it's more because they also nerfed her other cards too harshly with this change (Dark Whisper, Bane). Ever since I've been advocate of reworking/removing unfun cards that remove 1 of your loadout slots.

    @DocsHolliday57 said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    @TTraw
    Why can't your friends or new players just pick one of the pre-made decks like I do.

    Because premade decks are mostly shit.

    Also, one of your starting quests is to make a loadout. Seeing giant flow of information of 16 different cards with large description and leveling system is simply off-putting for any newcomer.

    It's hidden in human psyche, simple as that. It is a studied fact that people are less likely to buy a product if they are overwhelmed by choice, and similar logic can be applied to video games. You need to show new players only specific portion of information at a time and then progress them into new options along with the experience they gain.

    This is related to both good game design and good UI design and currently, our loadout system does not do that. With removing cards we could kill 2 birds in one stone - overwhelming information, as well as unbalanced decks.

    No stress, and by the way love the dramatic Exhausting and Parilyzing bit lol

    SO DRAMATIC

    @Christlike said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    that's your oversight though. Not the games problem. They are clear enough and some things you have to experiment with etc. I didn't know up until a couple days ago that they put CD on some cards for some champs. Happend during my time off. Have 800+ hours into the game and that was totally new to me.

    So you're saying you had problem to notice a certain aspect of the game after 800h experience, and then scratch is off as "not a big deal"? I would say it's games fault and not yours, because the timer is placed in a spot where you can barely notice it.

    @Christlike said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    its only frustrating you.

    That's clearly false. It also frustrates me and my new buddies.



  • @TTraw correction. You and the small minority. The majority want depth and paladins is a democracy. ✌ lol



  • @Christlike said in What if we removed 1 card per category?:

    . The majority want depth and paladins is a democracy.

    To me it sounds more like:

    I want depth the same way I had my Season 2 meta. Full of Soul Forge 5 in every loadout



  • @TTraw yes!


Log in to reply