Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework)



  • @Dusklicious said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    @HeartQueen said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    ??? Why nerf Atlas again? He's just not starting to get some play. Please don't.

    I don't think Barik needs a projectile speed increase. Why rework failsafe?

    Please don't nerf Earthen Guard. I love the increased healing received. Mother's Grace getting a nerf? Just why??? I'm not understanding why people hate Inara so much. Inara doesn't need more healing with insurmountable tbh. I like dr for Inara because that's her thing. I like how she is supposed to manage her cooldowns and rotate them properly. This is why I don't get why people hate her so much. She's about rotating and managing cooldowns, and mitigating damage in a healthy way. She isn't infinite barriers. That's why I love her and Barik so much.

    Yes to Khan damage, and no to Vortex Grip.

    Hmm... I don't know about giving Raum cc immunity as a talent. At the same time, I do think Subservience needs to be changed.

    I like the other changes though and agree with them.

    Atlas is the best off-tank in the game on PC, and this isn't entirely a nerf... The weapon nerf is not awfully impactful (just not making it overpowered because they seem to like to break it), and the barrier nerf is necessary mostly because so the rework to Temporal Divide. The main thing these changes would do is make it so there's a reason to play a talent that isn't Deja Vu (the buff to Unstable Fissure would be pretty massive probably) and also to make him a bit less good compared to other OT options considering he counters Ash, Raum and Ruckus all very well and in fact too well considering his ult bug on live. Still overall a nerf, yes. But there's definitely a reason for that for Diamond+ PC.

    Projectile speed increase would make the projectile much more confirmable at its longer range. Tinkerin is supposed to be a ranged option over his base, but right now it's a legit handicap. Failsafe is broken as f*** and always has been and to buff Barik after his health buff he's going to need a nerf to something. Plus the structure of Failsafe as a card makes it so rank 3 is a must and anything past it is a waste.

    This, technically, isn't really a buff or a nerf to it. More rather a redistribution of her power so that way her other talents are useful. Mother's Grace is a stupidly designed talent that's almost always the meta choice on Inara whenever she's good. Also buffs to her self-healing go whoosh. In fact, MG will have MORE DR with these changes but so would her base since the healing boost would be put on MG instead of base.

    Current design of Vortex definitely needs something done to it. The way it's designed now is pretty much going to be either really bad or really annoying to play against. At least with the cripple it's not so blatant in forcing that dynamic but it does keep the talent's original function.

    Also gave him a few nerfs to accomodate for how good that might be, as well as one to make it so the talent isn't just CC immunity, but nonetheless he needs a way to deal with CC that isn't a joke but at the same time there needs to be room to nerf Harbinger because it's too strong.

    He doesn't need a nerf though at all. And I wouldn't say he's the best off tank on PC either tbh. I think he's just good in the right hands, which is the perfect spot for him.

    Barik doesn't need the projectile speed buff though. That would increase his dps even more. Failsafe isn't busted. I don't know. It seems like when they buff Barik's base kit so that he has more loadout space, people want to nerf the cards so you have to run the card at a higher value or it's useless. I really don't want that to happen again.

    I don't know if she should have no healing received at all though on Earthen Guard. Maybe lower the value? How about buffing the card that gives dr on Warder's Field?

    The thing with Raum is, I don't know what you'd replace his healing talent with. So I'm just as confused as you. I just don't know about the cc immunity since Raum is countered by cc. I think if you gave him less hp and dr, it would be okay. But then, he might not be as strong. So I really don't know. 😞


  • PC

    @HeartQueen said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    @Dusklicious said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    @HeartQueen said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    ??? Why nerf Atlas again? He's just not starting to get some play. Please don't.

    I don't think Barik needs a projectile speed increase. Why rework failsafe?

    Please don't nerf Earthen Guard. I love the increased healing received. Mother's Grace getting a nerf? Just why??? I'm not understanding why people hate Inara so much. Inara doesn't need more healing with insurmountable tbh. I like dr for Inara because that's her thing. I like how she is supposed to manage her cooldowns and rotate them properly. This is why I don't get why people hate her so much. She's about rotating and managing cooldowns, and mitigating damage in a healthy way. She isn't infinite barriers. That's why I love her and Barik so much.

    Yes to Khan damage, and no to Vortex Grip.

    Hmm... I don't know about giving Raum cc immunity as a talent. At the same time, I do think Subservience needs to be changed.

    I like the other changes though and agree with them.

    Atlas is the best off-tank in the game on PC, and this isn't entirely a nerf... The weapon nerf is not awfully impactful (just not making it overpowered because they seem to like to break it), and the barrier nerf is necessary mostly because so the rework to Temporal Divide. The main thing these changes would do is make it so there's a reason to play a talent that isn't Deja Vu (the buff to Unstable Fissure would be pretty massive probably) and also to make him a bit less good compared to other OT options considering he counters Ash, Raum and Ruckus all very well and in fact too well considering his ult bug on live. Still overall a nerf, yes. But there's definitely a reason for that for Diamond+ PC.

    Projectile speed increase would make the projectile much more confirmable at its longer range. Tinkerin is supposed to be a ranged option over his base, but right now it's a legit handicap. Failsafe is broken as f*** and always has been and to buff Barik after his health buff he's going to need a nerf to something. Plus the structure of Failsafe as a card makes it so rank 3 is a must and anything past it is a waste.

    This, technically, isn't really a buff or a nerf to it. More rather a redistribution of her power so that way her other talents are useful. Mother's Grace is a stupidly designed talent that's almost always the meta choice on Inara whenever she's good. Also buffs to her self-healing go whoosh. In fact, MG will have MORE DR with these changes but so would her base since the healing boost would be put on MG instead of base.

    Current design of Vortex definitely needs something done to it. The way it's designed now is pretty much going to be either really bad or really annoying to play against. At least with the cripple it's not so blatant in forcing that dynamic but it does keep the talent's original function.

    Also gave him a few nerfs to accomodate for how good that might be, as well as one to make it so the talent isn't just CC immunity, but nonetheless he needs a way to deal with CC that isn't a joke but at the same time there needs to be room to nerf Harbinger because it's too strong.

    He doesn't need a nerf though at all. And I wouldn't say he's the best off tank on PC either tbh. I think he's just good in the right hands, which is the perfect spot for him.

    Barik doesn't need the projectile speed buff though. That would increase his dps even more. Failsafe isn't busted. I don't know. It seems like when they buff Barik's base kit so that he has more loadout space, people want to nerf the cards so you have to run the card at a higher value or it's useless. I really don't want that to happen again.

    I don't know if she should have no healing received at all though on Earthen Guard. Maybe lower the value? How about buffing the card that gives dr on Warder's Field?

    The thing with Raum is, I don't know what you'd replace his healing talent with. So I'm just as confused as you. I just don't know about the cc immunity since Raum is countered by cc. I think if you gave him less hp and dr, it would be okay. But then, he might not be as strong. So I really don't know. 😞

    Uhh, okay, but I mean the only other OTs in competition at all are Raum and Torv and I suppose Koa but even then why would you play him off when you can just play him point and spam bubble on objective during point fights...?

    Uhmmm, you do realize I was talking about Tinkerin... A talent... That as of now does less damage than base... And yeah failsafe is definitely busted. Failsafe saves you very often even in situations where you should probably have died, especially combo'ed with Bowling Ball... It's insanely reliable, and easily his best card in the game. And this nerf isn't even that big really. You'll only lose 10 seconds of internal CD at rank 3, and that's for all the buffs he would get on top of the 4k hp he'll already be getting. Card should still be fine. Double proccing BB/DT would still have a lot of value.

    DR card on Warder's is fine as is I think. In fact I even run it on Grace I think. The DR as of now actually has a lot of value as is, and the changes would make her already have 45% DR just from Mother's Grace, at base, so removing the healing is warranted. Plus it doesn't make Mother's Grace pretty much just boost her ability to face-tank even further but makes it a way to complement high healing instead by giving it back some of the healing bonus it lost.

    I mean he has less access to his dash and he wouldn't be able to run much DR with that talent aside from Void Lord. I don't see a really huge issue. You'd essentially be sacrificing durability to deal with CC matchups. Granted he already can sort of deal with them as is, it's with a talent that's otherwise a kind of bad meme talent.



  • I am fine with most of these, except those sledgehammer Atlas nerfs that I think are meant to compensate for you introducing your double barrier fantasy?

    Atlas is one of worst performing tanks in both overal and dia+ matches, while also being one of least picked ones. I am not sure why would you think he is broken. If you do great with him then maybe you're just skilled.



  • @TTraw I'd even say he is the worst performing tank in overall and high rank matches. The only other candidate is Khan but I think he is slightly better than Atlas.


  • PC

    @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    @TTraw I'd even say he is the worst performing tank in overall and high rank matches. The only other candidate is Khan but I think he is slightly better than Atlas.

    Weird because every single high ELO player I've seen attests that he's probably the best OT in the game right now. Either him, Raum, or Torv.

    @TTraw said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    I am fine with most of these, except those sledgehammer Atlas nerfs that I think are meant to compensate for you introducing your double barrier fantasy?

    Atlas is one of worst performing tanks in both overal and dia+ matches, while also being one of least picked ones. I am not sure why would you think he is broken. If you do great with him then maybe you're just skilled.

    Sledgehammer nerfs? The damage nerf will barely do anything, the duration nerf is not that big whatsoever, and aren't you forgetting the fact I buffed both talents that aren't named Deja Vu...? It seems like you're really just obsessed with $#!++ing on me when frankly, why would it somehow be broken on Atlas when on Inara, it's not only not broken it's one of the worst talents in the whole game...? Seems to me you frankly just can't handle other peoples' ideas on the game...?

    He's not picked because he's banned half the time. 🤣 In fact, he's banned entirely from competitive... Granted that's because of a specific bug involving his ult and unintentionally making him the hardest Ruckus counter in the whole game. And I never once said I think he's broken, you're literally just making that up for the sake of this need to be better than me for some reason I don't understand. Maybe it's just because I somehow hurt your feelings...?



  • @Dusklicious said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    Sledgehammer nerfs? The damage nerf will barely do anything, the duration nerf is not that big whatsoever, and aren't you forgetting the fact I buffed both talents that aren't named Deja Vu...?

    Let's see:

    • 50 less DPS on his primary fire
    • 20% shorter duration on his vital survival ability
    • 40% power reduction on his most important card in his loadout

    For comparison, Ash got 40 less DPS and it was a nerf that moved her from Meta instantly back into the trash compactor. Not to mention that this damage nerf makes all 2400 hp targets require 1 more shot to kill them.

    To compensate you buffed his one unused talent, and reworked the mid-used one.

    I don't know about Temporal Divide's power because that's completely new playstyle redefined to fill completely different purpose than original big wall, but buffing his underperforming talent at cost of hitting his most dominant one so significantly when noone (from my experience) finds Atlas to be a balance issue is not very reasonable.

    "I made Mortal Reach 50% better but to compensate it I nerfed Soul Collector in half"
    Why would there be a need for compensation when these two are not internally tied together? See what I am saying?

    It seems like you're really just obsessed with $#!++ing on me when frankly, why would it somehow be broken on Atlas when on Inara, it's not only not broken it's one of the worst talents in the whole game...? Seems to me you frankly just can't handle other peoples' ideas on the game...?

    If saying that you are skilled with Atlas is shitting on you, then yes, I am puking shit out of every single orifice of my body.

    He's not picked because he's banned half the time.

    He has 1% banrate im competetive environment.

    And I never once said I think he's broken, you're literally just making that up for the sake of this need to be better than me for some reason I don't understand. Maybe it's just because I somehow hurt your feelings...?

    I instantly assume that when you nerf him so much you think of him as broken.

    Besides, you okay? I doubt there's been a time where I ever made myself better over you. You give statement, I join discussion and say my arguments as to why I think certain idea is bad, or explain my reasoning behind points you found lacking. If that hurts you then consider taking a break from forums every now and then. This is one of the advantages you gain in the internet over real life problems, you know?



  • @TTraw said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    I am fine with most of these, except those sledgehammer Atlas nerfs that I think are meant to compensate for you introducing your double barrier fantasy?

    Atlas is one of worst performing tanks in both overal and dia+ matches, while also being one of least picked ones. I am not sure why would you think he is broken. If you do great with him then maybe you're just skilled.

    Last split he had a decent win rate and pick rate, so I think he's in a good spot for the most part. He does require a lot of skill, but you can actually do well with him if you master him. Though I don't think he deserves a nerf. He's healthy without being busted, which is a great spot for him. I think I predicted a while back that Atlas might be one of those champions like Buck and Willo, where people hate when they're in the meta. Of course this thread doesn't prove that just yet, but it's an argument for my theory being right.



  • @Dusklicious said in Season 4 Balance Patch Frontline Check List (Sans Torvald, because rework):

    Weird because every single high ELO player I've seen attests that he's probably the best OT in the game right now. Either him, Raum, or Torv.

    The difference between winning 50% or 55% percent of your games with a certain champion is too little that you'd notice it while playing. So you judge how good a champion is by how good it feels to play him or how bad it feels against him.

    Also Atlas gets better with higher skill, so for master or GMs the stats might look better.



  • Atlas....
    Setback talent makes bubble shield makoa broken....
    Shield talent makes an immortal hexifire...
    Why play atlas alone..
    Its not that he is the best off tank in the game, its just he is far better suited to playing back up rather then frontline...

    Seriously though.
    Atlas sucks as a solo tank while his shield has prefire delay.
    Without another defence engine to rotate around for peel and sightline protection, atlas is forced to waste abilities and constantly move around terrain to minimise getting dog piled after second chance making it hard for him to stay in no mans land compared to other tanks.



  • @Dusklicious
    Taken from Evie tread as its more on topic here.

    Fireball used to have Caut in cards and that was a pretty serious problem as you could have fireball apply Caut 2.5 at the very beginning of the game. Or of course it wouldn't be used.
    I think they should be making Fireball an in-hand so if you get Caut as an item, it should apply it. Also on the topic of fireball they need to buff Incinerate so Fireball has an actually good CDR card again.

    I know the story all too well comrade...
    Glad to see you mentioned it here...

    Voiced the same conclusion back then saying Fernando's low Primary attack dps scales poorly with other damage items and Fireball utility damage can repair this issue.
    And still today Fernando has issues against High HP deployables (in the current meta) and suffers against Personal Shield pocket (with a history of fighting busted torv pocket to back that fact) due to having not enough burst to compensate for instant endurance...

    With Weapon Utility Damage to Fireball, building cauterise can return that feeling of momentarily staggering recovery against a stack within his sightline for a brief moment and allow fireball to change the tide of battle, while also building additional pressure to characters that kite and stay outside his reach.

    While Building Wrecker and Dozer allows for near instantaneous burst damage to counter burst endurance mechanics such as personal shielding, alternatively providing a mightily blow vs deployables to hasten their drop time as its unlikely he will be able to stack damage off multiple players if a deployable is blocking or in an unlikely position to stack multiple players.

    Another issue to consider with this is that inhand attacks gain Life Rip, so the HP on each Fireball hit card should be distributed over a duration instead of instantly to compensate for this feature, or replaced with an armour card that increases life rip as Burning Damage (despite not providing caut), does provide life rip.


    One of the issues I think the Devs fear is the consistency of Fireball getting a fast CD, it allows for an initial poke and execution strike if certain conditions are met, together with his shield affording the bide / bully time with a dash/slam to out position the opponent, the design is lethal vs a player with no mobility, squishy hp and no ability to lock him down or deter his pathfinding.

    But with fireballs current dependence on foes stacking and lack of utility damage upgrades, its CD feels a tad underwhelming in effectiveness compared to the tempo and impact of Term Calamity Blast and Ash Kinetic Blast CD Refire rates.


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