Done with rejuvenate(rage)



  • @D3L1R10U5 It's even worse than you said, because of Cauterize making Rejuvenate effectivly less than a 4% healing increase.
    And to think some people even say it's Caut the one that needs to be buffed...



  • Rejuvenate is useless on tanks at this point. Way better items to get. Though it's a good 4th item if you have nothing else to get.

    I think they just need to buff the item shop. If Cauterize scaled by 27/54/81 and rejuvenate scaled by 7/14/21, it'd be worth it to get.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    @D3L1R10U5 It's even worse than you said, because of Cauterize making Rejuvenate effectivly less than a 4% healing increase.
    And to think some people even say it's Caut the one that needs to be buffed...

    The issue is that rejuvenate scales to cauterize. If cauterize is weak, then rejuvenate is weak. Back then it was 30/60/90 cauterize and 10/20/30 rejuvenate. They basically want rejuvenate to nullify cauterize to 20/40/60 scaling in the end, which is does now. 25/50/75 and 5/10/15 has the same nullified effect.



  • @HeartQueen That's the problem, the scale of how much Rejuvenate counters Caut is too low.
    It should reduce its percentage by at least 7/14/21, rather then 5/10/15, so to actually be comparable to Haven and Blast Shields. As OP said, Rejuvenate requires a Support to have any effect while still being weaker than the two dr items, which are always active. The only reason to pick it is that is cheaper or if you want to be nice to your support and pad his stat.



  • @D3L1R10U5 said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    I will put it in logical perspective: 0.15 of 10,000 points of healing is 1,500, verses 0.21 of 10,000 damage, in reduction, is 2,100 points...

    Haven is twice as expensive as Rejuve though and Haven doesn't work against blast damage. Nevertheless Haven 2 is indeed worth more than Rejuvenate 3.

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    @D3L1R10U5 It's even worse than you said, because of Cauterize making Rejuvenate effectivly less than a 4% healing increase.

    Mmmh..no. If you get 1000 heal vs cauterize 3 it's 250 heal. With Rejuvenate 15% you get instead 25%+15%=40%=400 heal. 150 more. 150 of 1000 is 15%. You get always 15% more heal no matter if against cauterize or not.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    @HeartQueen That's the problem, the scale of how much Rejuvenate counters Caut is too low.
    It should reduce its percentage by at least 7/14/21, rather then 5/10/15, so to actually be comparable to Haven and Blast Shields. As OP said, Rejuvenate requires a Support to have any effect while still being weaker than the two dr items, which are always active. The only reason to pick it is that is cheaper or if you want to be nice to your support and pad his stat.

    Nah. Healing is already a bit overwhelming tbh. I want more counterplay to healing actually. I would love cauterize to get a buff, but along with rejuvenate as well. It'll make playing support more skilled. Nowadays, supports are strong arming cauterize, which is not ideal for this game at all.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 Yeah, I know, I miscalculated



  • @HeartQueen I get where you're coming from but I disagreee. The average dps in the game is ~870 (ignoring falloff) while the average hps is ~570 (ignoring all cooldowns, ~730 if you include Solar Blessing), meaning that at base the average healing ability cannot compensate for one single source of average primary fire by a mile. Even if the target has one of the 21% dr items, Caut 1 is already enough to outdamage the heal. I'd say healing is all but overwhelming.



  • @HeartQueen said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    Nah. Healing is already a bit overwhelming tbh. I want more counterplay to healing actually. I would love cauterize to get a buff, but along with rejuvenate as well. It'll make playing support more skilled.

    I never got the intention behind the nerf of cauterize. It was a must buy then and it's a must buy now. They nerfed the supports to compensate for the weaker caut so what was the point? I got the idea behind the wrecker nerf, to make shields more reliable and not be strong at start and become useless in late game. But what is the improvement that was achieved (or not?) by the cauterize reduction?

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    The average dps in the game is ~870 (ignoring falloff) while the average hps is ~570 (ignoring all cooldowns, ~730 if you include Solar Blessing), meaning that at base the average healing ability cannot compensate for one single source of average primary fire by a mile.

    If you ignore cooldowns the hps is much higher than 570. A mega potion pip heals over 2K per second without cooldowns. The average dps means that you hit 100% of your shots and is only possible with an aimbot. In a real match without cauterize a strong healer can easily compensate the damage of a single attacker.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    If you ignore cooldowns the hps is much higher than 570. A mega potion pip heals over 2K per second without cooldowns.

    Uhm, yeah, I kinda forgot Mega Potion but I don't think it changes the situation, since not even Solar Blessing could.
    However, note that with "no cooldowns" I meant that healing abilities are ready as soon as they end, so to have costant uptime comparable to primary fires, not that you can spam them every 0.01s (so, for stuff like Potion or Blossom I kept a 1s time margin for the animation/landing the heal). You can recalculate the avg if you want, but I don't think I went too far off.

    In a real match without cauterize a strong healer can easily compensate the damage of a single attacker.

    Absolutely true, but you also have to consider that there's rarely a single attacker, in a normal situation the players shooting usually outnumber the players healing.
    Of course, there are damages that cannot be outhealed by most healers, heals that cannot be outdamaged even by three people shooting, drop-off and inaccuracy, you can miss shots and miss heals, there's shields, cauterize, damage reductions, lots of other abilities that should be accounted for, etc.
    I had to make simplifications to make a humanly possible comparison, but overall I think damage beats heal most of the times and that's why I disagree with calling healing overwhelming (except Yagorath with SB, that's totally op).



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    I never got the intention behind the nerf of cauterize. It was a must buy then and it's a must buy now. They nerfed the supports to compensate for the weaker caut so what was the point? I got the idea behind the wrecker nerf, to make shields more reliable and not be strong at start and become useless in late game. But what is the improvement that was achieved (or not?) by the cauterize reduction?

    I think it was because against 90% healing reduction Supports felt useless. After that change their popularity and pick rates skyrocketed, they even made their own meta and are no longer the last pick in every single match.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    However, note that with "no cooldowns" I meant that healing abilities are ready as soon as they end

    I don't think there is a support below 1K/sec then, except Jenos. Kindle Soul does 1000+400 heal +15% of the HP with Cherish. Thats 1900/sec on a hypothetical 1 second cooldown. Blossom does 800+300 with rampant blooming, and so on.

    Damage beats heals if cauterize is involved. Against double support without cauterize I have seen the damage fail against the heal.

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    I think it was because against 90% healing reduction Supports felt useless. After that change their popularity and pick rates skyrocketed, they even made their own meta and are no longer the last pick in every single match.

    I personally think this makes no difference. Since teams without support didn't work, the support was obviously crucial for the success. I think if playing support is fun depends on how much of a flank-victim and heal-bot the support is. Tanks regularly bought rejuvenate back then, what they don't do now. So there is not that much difference.

    I am not sure why supports are so popular lately. The three new healers, Furia, Io and Corvus are quite cool champions, that could be part of the reason.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    hats 1900/sec on a hypothetical 1 second cooldown.

    I require explanation



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    @HeartQueen I get where you're coming from but I disagreee. The average dps in the game is ~870 (ignoring falloff) while the average hps is ~570 (ignoring all cooldowns, ~730 if you include Solar Blessing), meaning that at base the average healing ability cannot compensate for one single source of average primary fire by a mile. Even if the target has one of the 21% dr items, Caut 1 is already enough to outdamage the heal. I'd say healing is all but overwhelming.

    You also miss that there are ways to mitigate damage. Shields, damage reduction, cover, increased healing, etc. You also have to factor in good and bad supports. An old game had Ying getting 415k healing in 22 minutes when cauterize was 90%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_8EtmPTPs&ab_channel=PaladinsCompetitive Frzgod had 324k damage, and was the highest damage in that same match.

    @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    @HeartQueen said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    Nah. Healing is already a bit overwhelming tbh. I want more counterplay to healing actually. I would love cauterize to get a buff, but along with rejuvenate as well. It'll make playing support more skilled.

    I never got the intention behind the nerf of cauterize. It was a must buy then and it's a must buy now. They nerfed the supports to compensate for the weaker caut so what was the point? I got the idea behind the wrecker nerf, to make shields more reliable and not be strong at start and become useless in late game. But what is the improvement that was achieved (or not?) by the cauterize reduction?

    @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    The average dps in the game is ~870 (ignoring falloff) while the average hps is ~570 (ignoring all cooldowns, ~730 if you include Solar Blessing), meaning that at base the average healing ability cannot compensate for one single source of average primary fire by a mile.

    If you ignore cooldowns the hps is much higher than 570. A mega potion pip heals over 2K per second without cooldowns. The average dps means that you hit 100% of your shots and is only possible with an aimbot. In a real match without cauterize a strong healer can easily compensate the damage of a single attacker.

    They nerfed wrecker wrong tbh. The issue was that wrecker was too weak early game at 75% and too strong late game at 225% Instead of changing everything, they should've changed wrecker scaling. 100/125/150 would've been great. That way it's stronger early game but weaker late game. Now we have an Overwatch style shield meta, which is not good.



  • @M3RC3N4RI0 said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    I don't think there is a support below 1K/sec then, except Jenos. Kindle Soul does 1000+400 heal +15% of the HP with Cherish. Thats 1900/sec on a hypothetical 1 second cooldown. Blossom does 800+300 with rampant blooming, and so on.

    Kindle Soul heals 1400 over 2s, even with Cherish it'd become only 805 hps, how did you get 1900 ?
    Maybe I wasn't much clear when explaining "no cooldowns": for instantaneous abilities (Potion, Blossom, Life exchange, etc.) I considered only 1s of "cast" time, for over-time abilities (Cherish, Restore Soul, Abyssal Reconstruction, Totem, etc.) I considered the cooldown to be ready again as soon as the healing ends, for resource abilities (Moonlight, Spirit's Domain) I considered them to have infinite resource.
    The idea was to be able to constantly use the healing, not overlapping multiple uses of the abilities at once.



  • @HeartQueen said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    You also miss that there are ways to mitigate damage. Shields, damage reduction, cover, increased healing, etc. You also have to factor in good and bad supports.

    But then I could also consider ways to mitigate healing, such as reverse cover (if you know what I mean), bursts, healing reduction abilities, etc. It would be very hard to factor everything in, that's why I made the compromise of not considering anything outside of the healing/primary fire themselves and tried to equalize their uptime as much as possible.
    I never meant this argument to be as accurate as possible, just wanted to say "I consider healing overall to be weaker than damage so I disagree to call it overwhelming".

    An old game had Ying getting 415k healing in 22 minutes when cauterize was 90%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_8EtmPTPs&ab_channel=PaladinsCompetitive Frzgod had 324k damage, and was the highest damage in that same match.

    Oh, come on, those are all pro players and Ying had three people with rejuvenate, of witch two where tanks, of which one was a Mother Grace Inara. Even with old Cauterize, that's a pretty ideal situation to get big numbers, it cannot be an example of an average match. 😅



  • Just got done looking at some results of grand master games, and I did not see any use of rejuvenate...js

    PS, the intent was to vent about healers who focus DPS, and it turns out I learned rejuvenate is a waste of credits. Thanks for the more articulate evidence presented!


  • PC

    @D3L1R10U5 said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    Just got done looking at some results of grand master games, and I did not see any use of rejuvenate...js

    Because Rejuvenate is not a good item. The scaling is pitiful. Before its nerf it was meta on pretty much every tank, and in fact not picking it up for main/mid tanks was essentially throwing.



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    @HeartQueen said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    You also miss that there are ways to mitigate damage. Shields, damage reduction, cover, increased healing, etc. You also have to factor in good and bad supports.

    But then I could also consider ways to mitigate healing, such as reverse cover (if you know what I mean), bursts, healing reduction abilities, etc. It would be very hard to factor everything in, that's why I made the compromise of not considering anything outside of the healing/primary fire themselves and tried to equalize their uptime as much as possible.
    I never meant this argument to be as accurate as possible, just wanted to say "I consider healing overall to be weaker than damage so I disagree to call it overwhelming".

    An old game had Ying getting 415k healing in 22 minutes when cauterize was 90%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_8EtmPTPs&ab_channel=PaladinsCompetitive Frzgod had 324k damage, and was the highest damage in that same match.

    Oh, come on, those are all pro players and Ying had three people with rejuvenate, of witch two where tanks, of which one was a Mother Grace Inara. Even with old Cauterize, that's a pretty ideal situation to get big numbers, it cannot be an example of an average match. 😅

    Average matches had 10k healing per minute as the standard for high elo games. And yes high elo games, because you can't balance around the average Gold player. You balance around high elo. In high elo, supports got high healing numbers. There are other examples. Look at old PaladinsTube and Paladins Competitive matches. They show Platinum and above elo games. https://www.youtube.com/c/PaladinsTube/playlists Several players, even in Platinum, got high healing numbers despite cauterize being at 90%



  • @SomeGuySomeWhere said in Done with rejuvenate(rage):

    Kindle Soul heals 1400 over 2s, even with Cherish it'd become only 805 hps, how did you get 1900 ?

    It's 1000 immediately plus 400 over 2s. The additional 15% heal of Cherish is another 750 on a 5K HP tank. 1000+200+750=1950 heal in the first second.


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