Where is the End of the Burst Meta?
EnGPoN last edited by EnGPoN
I am extremely disappointed with the current state of the game, I play for a year and it was much more fun when players did not explore the imbalance of the game. I think the height of the current nonsense is being the damage bonus on ALL matches. This is totally toxic anti-gambling and boring to deal with. In my opinion, all legendary damage bonuses should be banished from the face of the earth. In the ranking of Brazil has damage bonus in every match, and this is a problem, because there is no way to ban the 3 champions that apply this effect and still ban other unbalanced characters like Drogoz (which I do not know how they did not realize that they sinned in the WYRM jets), Cassie, Lian, Atlas, Makoa and other broken characters. Even though there were 6 bans in the ranks, it wouldn't solve the problem in casual, this game needs urgent changes in balance and creativity on the part of developers to rework these characters.
xsXS99 last edited by xsXS99
You are absolutely right, unfortunately the burst meta is still present, with champions with too much burst like cassie, lian, strix, the flanks (if they can be called that, when they are damage at close range), and with supports that are healbots and they serve no more than sparring healing, running and unable to defend themselves and play more aggressively (the hp nerf with nothing in exchange one of the most stupid decision made by the desing team), some tanks with crazy damage like khan and atlas and now recently, with the op dmg amps, so frustrating to play against.
The problem is easy to solve, you just have to return to the metal of the ob52 with slow projectiles, less healing, more mobility, supports with better base kit, unfortunately to do this it is essential that each platform has a separate balance, which I do not see possible with the arrival of the crossplay that nobody asked for. Today the game is based on who chooses the most op champion or who busts first who, leaving the skill in the background
There are currently problems with every class:
Flanks got destroyed after the mobility nerf and increase of burst now most of them are melt bad team do nothing vs good team champions. Maybe revert this change to a certain degree.
Damage dealers are not punished enough for bad positioning (the excepcions are drogoz, willo, kinessa and non hunting mark tyra) so they can just destroy everything in their path with either burst or sustained damage. This class is so messed up that I can't think of anything to solve this properly.
Supports need survivability so what about increasing their hp pools again and give them a bit betters offensive skills/attacks . Other option would be deleting their healing talents, modify a bit their base healing skills and give them only talents to defend themselves and give utility in other ways other than healing so they can choose .
There are some front-lines than needs bigger hp pools like terminus, ash or nando so they aren't melted in no time and ruckus needs something else, they guy just feel bad to play.
I'm back after 1 year and there are the same problems.
schachmaty last edited by
I have absolutely no comment. So many people have pointed it out, this burst meta problem, and yet they aren't listening to their community at all. I completely agree. Flanks are like close range damage dealers with little to no mobility. That's why the game was so fun in the past, because it had a lot of mobility (Evie could blink out of Ice Block, she had more blink rage, her soar was faster, Kinessa tele could be used every 2 seconds, so you could tele around the map, etc. Instead we have champions like Strix that can completely destroy any squishy in a second or so and deal insane burst. Healers like Ying, Grover or Seris are defenseless against flanks.
Atlas and Khan are damage dealers with 2 times the HP Pool of a DD (or rather 4 times the HP pool, if you count in the Rewind).
Whenever a flank is playable, HiRez decides to completely kill it and make it useless (Zhin 3 months ago, Andro late 2018, both got completely killed because they were capable of killing people and capable of surviving).
@xsXS99 Yes, I also believe that in order to solve the game it should be what it once was in some respects. One solution that I think could help a lot is if there was a block on skill utilization of at least 1s, so I think the game would stop being so frantic with those usual Bursts are the combination of a primary shot and a skill
EnGPoN last edited by EnGPoN
@ShogunPukin I found this idea of extinguishing the legendary cure and incorporating it into the basic kit very interesting but I don't know ... I think that in response to the community, at least Brazil would treat the supports as secondary damage, in a way, I say that because The support class is increasingly losing its primary healing function to increase damage or collective control, which is why jenos have recently entered the goal, players have sacrificed survival through healing and prioritizing increased the damage. damage and leave totally broken, because jenos does not keep tanks on the spot for example and generally his healing does not save.
Driggydrug last edited by
The problem with supports is born when mobility and ttk became ridicously low. Now their sustain and HP are trash but their healing output is huge, this caused the problem with healbots.
You have to defend them well so they can spam big heals and astral mark (that also boost dmg) on allies.
Good healers in good teams don't die very often because they're protected by OP off tanks that deals a ton of damage and have infinite sustain (khan, makoa, atlas), but in reality the healbot playstyle is stupid and shouldn't exist unless you're using certain talents.
Btw I agree with you, the game is now based on stupid burst combos since they lowered the ttk with hp nerfs and dmg buffs.
With the hypermobility excuse they also fucked the flank concept and the game in general making it slow, boring and frustrating.
And most of the things in this game are now easy and braindead, paladins isn't competitive anymore because everything is noob friendly.
The support class is increasingly losing its primary healing function to increase damage or collective control
Not really. With the former patches the support class has received buffs on their healing while other parts of their kit like mobility and damage have been nerfed. Even that jenos talent you mentioned has received a nerf. Before, the 15% damage also applied to jenos, now it only applies to teammates. He's the "carry me" champion by excellence. His healing also got buffed recently, by the way. The tendency, in general, is to make supports become healers with little to no survavility on their own, and they heavily depend on their team. Also, maybe I am wrong, but among all the supports only jenos can buff dmg to others
I agree about the burst meta and how unfun it is. You don't have time to react, to do anything, when you realize you're already dead. If I remember correctly, evil mojo considered the higher ttk (with more mobility and hp) the worst meta, yet I didn't find any explanation as to why they considered it the worst, and I would love to know, because it confuses me, it was when more people played the game. More people (and more happy people) means more money, no?
DrthMalice last edited by
I can finally post in these forums. Flanks are way too powerful. Between absurd damage levels and crazy mobility, they melt front line characters and make healers obsolete. Most of them can turn to smoke or heal themselves at absurd levels so they are nearly unkillable too. Either reduce their damage or nerf their movement but something has to give. Some other issues I have:
- Grohk versus other healers. Yes I am a Grohk main. He needs a healing overhaul. His staff should heal by default. His healing loadouts should be the current Totem one with cc and then add a new one that allows for two totems to be placed. Jenos and Ying can already fill the board with marks and clones so this would bring him up to par with them. Io's fox has no burn out and a huge range by default. Jenos' mark needs to disappear when he dies the same as Grohk and others. I think Grohk's pulse needs a small damage increase too to make it a little more than chip damage. Right now, if there is a healer in the group, maelstrom does very little.
- Dredge. Way too high of damage on his lob shots. If you do manage to sneak up on him, he self heals too much too. Nerf his damage.
- Snipers. Should only have a sniper weapon. That is what you choose when you select a sniper. They should not have a rapid fire weapon too that is on par with the overpowered flanks.
Driggydrug last edited by Driggydrug
Flank's mobility OP?? You must be kidding.
Flanker's mobility was nerfed to the ground and compensated with OP broken damage in the past, I don't know how can you complain about flanker's mobility when most of them have trash or even 0 moviment skills right now.
Sure, they're damage is too much and too easy to use and in fact it needs a nerf but nerfing their mobility again is just stupid.
What they need instead is a change nevert, in poor words: LESS BURST MORE MOBILITY, they need to be agile, high risk high reward classes like two years ago.
Idk what is your concept of "flanker" but hirez officialy said in their tutorial that they're really mobile characters that can sneak behind damagers and deal consistent damage at close/medium range.
Flankers need good mobility, they need to chase kills, finish squishy, rush, retreat and reposition.. right now they just spam burst like damage dealers.
@marantzz As for what you highlighted from my speech, I don't think I was very clear at the time, I'm sorry. I actually referred to Jenos with his game strategy aimed at raising team damage, favoring high burst damage, I say this because jenos, no matter how improved his healing potential, has only one cure at an acceptable level, but it is not very significant as the cure of a bad damba for example, so as I said in my comment, survival is sacrificed to strengthen the team offensive, so you can see what the players are doing because of an unexplained thirst for further damage; Grohk and Pip, which are originally supportive, but more viable and generally used as damage.
@Driggydrug Calmly, Paladins presents different realities in relation to META. For the low elo META is one, and for the high elo is another.
In my opinion there is actually only one META, which is high elo, the other is an adaptation to META because low elo players do not have the same playing field as the higher elo players. so for low elo, high mobility is difficult to deal with due to the greater difficulty of firing shots.
Driggydrug last edited by Driggydrug
This could be true in a game with slow projectiles, not many CC or reveals, not many hitscans and realistic small hitboxes such as old paladins from ob44 but with the current state of the game, low mobility (even on low elo) just causes a frustrating, boring and unbalanced gameplay.
The problem with flankers is born because mobility is crap right now.
If healers are healbots rn is because of bad excapes.
If ttk (timetokill) bacame so ridicolusly low is also because mobility was nerfed waaayyy too much!
If the game has so many mechanics is because it was originally projected to be an high TTK high mobility fps , not a casual stupid low TTK with crap mobility.
With a better tutorial new players will learn how game mechanics (like CC, comeback mechanic and many others) work and how to use them... so they'll be able to counter fast agile champions.
But even if that won't happen we still need a change revert: damage nerfs, hp buff and mobility buff to balance HIGH ELO and MEDIUM ELO... new players will learn like I did in tf2 with only 20/25 hours (where there's a ton of fast skill based characters )
Vaanfo last edited by
Burst Meta = Heal Meta.
This is a layered problem and it frustrates me to no end that they have ignored it for so long. Burst meta arises because heals are so ridiculously overpowered, that to counter it, they've implemented overpowered cauterize and burst to compensate.
This is completely backwards because it creates absolute dependence on burst and cauterize.
All healing should be cut to 30 - 40% of current values. Cauterize to be maxed out at 30% and rejuvenate no longer directly counter cauterize.
E.g. a heal of 1000 would be reduced to say 400. Max Reju brings it up to 520 and max cauterize bring 520 down to 364.
At the same time that healing nerfs are made they can remove damage amps, nerf burst to the ground especially with damage champs, buff mobility, buff supports hp, cc or escape.
This way tanks aren't directly nerfed but are invincible anymore, flanks can actually flank without having to wait for Caut 3, damages don't get to have long and short range superiority and supports are not just heal bots.
Gao Shun last edited by
@Vaanfo Heal Meta? What? NO
Healing has been nerfed a lot from earlier days of Paladins. Heals are never ridiculously overpowered, heals are never overpowered at all cause of cauterize.
Burst meta appeared cause Hirez combined PC & console balancing. Console players can't track fast movements so they nerfed mobility, and compensate with numbers game aka damage increase/decrease.
I swear if it down to some of you guys, support wouldn't even exists
@ Gao-Shun exactly, what he said was trying to justify EvilMojo's lack of common sense to realize the Burst Goal they feed more and more. This hurts the gameplay of the game and just stresses it out. If it had less damage, more HP, more mobility, the game would be much better and fun.
Vaanfo last edited by Vaanfo
Have you ever tried playing a mid to high tier game without cauterize and the enemy team has plenty of it? Probably not, because everyone is forced to buy Cauterize knowing that almost without fail, the team without cauterize will lose.
There is not a single item in game except cauterize where you absolutely have to buy it or you will lose. That is the very reason that it is overpowered. You don't notice a heal meta because cauterize is also overpowered and burst is on roids to counteract the healing.
My point is that all 3 aspects need nerfs to properly balance the game. But yeah I agree with the console/PC combined versions, really do not help. They're all problems leading to the same result, which is slow, low skill cap gaming with a heavy dependence on burst.
Gao Shun last edited by Gao Shun
I have been playing this game since 2016, and healing output was nerfed a lot compared to back then.
TLDR : Burst happened cause Hirez nerfed HP number, nerfed shield number, nerfed mobility. While completely forgetting about the base damage calculation was designed for champions with higher HP numbers
Back then, games minimal goes for 15 minutes cause every champions have higher HP, Fernando had 6000 HP + 10K Shield and Makoa had 5500 HP + 6000 Shield. Ying used to heal for 400/sec per illusion so 800/sec once you set up her illusions with longer range. Grohk used to heal for 600/sec base with healing rain card I think I did around 800/sec or more depends on the receiver HP. HP & heals were nerfed, a lot.
Was burst a problem back then? No, cause every champion has their own escape and has a higher HP (except Evie). Drogoz coming in with Caut 3 Salvo combo? You aren't instantly seeing the kill cam. Drogoz needed another shot to kill you (unless you are Evie)
See this video, did you see anyone getting instantly seeing killcam?
No, it needed a team effort cause unless you wasn't paying attention
Bursting you down from full HP needed a duel even when you are using Drogoz who was at full power with inherent Fussilade and Combustion and WYRM Jet combined into one, BK had chain reaction as base damage, Viktor has a combo where his grenade AND his first 4 bullets gave him bonus damage before adding headshots, Kinessa can one shot Evie with headshot and many many more damage buffs for each and every champion.
These days? If you aren't a tanky tank, a Drogoz could burst you down to 0 with one combo, there was a time Androxus can literally punch Fernando in a few secs (fortunately deviant fist has been changed), or some spammy pirate can burst you down to 0 with a click cause you walked into his spam area.
PS : And yes as you requested this is a high rank match, defnothanzo was one of the best Paladins player (above 5000 ELO) before he retired cause he doesn't like where the game is going, and he was right.
Heals are never the problem, cauterize is necessary but not the problem. Burst happened cause they nerfed mobility, they nerfed defensive items (cause many people find the item shop too complicated) so much I don't buy Haven/Blast shield anymore unless the opponent is really good cause at Haven/Blast3 only provide 21% dmg reduction that means nothing and it cost 1800 credits which would have gotten more green items or other items (AND how about the fact, they completely forgot to rebuff these items back to 30% max after all this burst meta fiasco), they nerfed HP, they nerfed shield.
While completely forgetting about the base damage calculation was designed for champions with higher HP numbers
Or maybe Hirez doesn't forget, it's just they wanted to emulate Overwatch's low TTK. Hell, what do I know...
socuteboss last edited by socuteboss
kinda agree with gao shun, old days many champ had dmg bonus in their base kit but no one complaining about burst meta, haven or blast is common pick as first item, cautirize is not really must buy item like today, most dmg and flank champ dps calculate around 1k/sc
projectile is more slower, hit scan dmg had dmg fall from long range except kinessa
Healing can and has been overpowered.
Just for one example, take Ying. Ying was completely busted when talents were introduced, and her old Lifelike card was super strong. Her healing was completely dominant, and she pulled massive numbers. Again, when Life Exchange got reworked, she wasn't as centralising but the talent was still definitely too strong, so it got nerfed.
Healing is most definitely stronger than it was in the past. I've been playing since 2016 too, and getting 150k healing was a huge achievement back then. Nowadays, it's expected.
This is for a few reasons I think:
Firstly, rejuvenate got buffed a couple of years back, to be applied before cauterize. It's now additive as opposed to multiplicative.
New tanks like Inara and Terminus have also increased the healing possible. Inara can increase healing with an ability, and Terminus can completely shut off damage in front of him and have huge DD reduction with the right loadout. Furthermore, many tanks now have in built rejuvenate into their loadouts.
The biggest overall reason is that healing and healers have also straight up had their healing increased. Seris can heal 1k a second, Pip can heal several allies for a 2400 burst and Grover's constant healing is ridiculous. All healers heal much more than they used too. Just look at the wiki.
Heal meta is a huge contributor to the burst meta that very few people realise and talk about. These huge heals require massive burst in order to kill anyone, so if we want burst gone all healing must be reduced too. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, healing gets buffed so burst is buffed to counter it, requiring more healing, requiring more burst etc.
Damage itself I feel hasn't changed that much over the years, but increased healing along with other general changes like lower mobility, higher range and lower health have all contributed.