@HeartQueen said in Zhin Rework [Season 3 Feedback]:

@shadowchess said in Zhin Rework [Season 3 Feedback]:

@IIMirage99II

None of this is good.
Zhin is over performing!
They nerf him and you want to buff him before the nerf even goes live?

More damage... Nope
Retaliation return... Nope
Changing his ult to be risk free... Nope

None of these ideas are remotly even on the table for Evil Mojo...

It takea quite a bit for them to revert a nerf.
Im suprised they gave Ash her damage back. Retaliation will never return because having a flank that can be the ultimate two second shield was just broken as shit for a skill with that much up time. It doing damgage on top of that was just crazy good.

Zhin should have 50% damage reduction in ult for base kit.

Change smolder legendary to smolder teleports zhin 25 units up and resets whirl.. But no longer puts him in smoke form.

Change Ultimate legendary to zhin can ult at 50% but it does two swings for 500 each.

I actually sort of like your ideas here.

• I don't think Zhin needs more damage in his base kit. His damage is currently enough in my opinion.

• I think retaliation should replace guillotine, but a nerfed version. It doesn't need the time increase, but the damage increase is fine. Have counter deal 50% more damage.

• His ult doesn't need to be risk free. Zhin has so much survivability in his base kit, his ult being risky isn't too bad.

I agree with your proposed changes. He shouldn't be immune from damage during his ult or completely safe, but 50% damage reduction is fair. I would actually replace Yomi with the talent that gives Zhin optional vertical mobility with whirl. Like Whirl does only 200 damage, but you get 2 consecutive uses of it, and you have the option to travel vertically/diagonally.

I'm personally not a fan of ult talents though. The only exception is Evie because she can only deal damage with her base ability, and with her ult.

@Demigod said in Zhin Rework [Season 3 Feedback]:

@IIMirage99II Oooo you sound constructive and open minded. My kind of guy.

Zhin in Season 2 used to be a somewhat viable flanker with the capability of his Yomi weapon, dealing both AoE damage, and direct damage in one in hand weapon.

Now, Zhin can access that same Yomi while still being able to use two of his other somewhat underrated talents in Season 2.

This would just straight out break him.

While I am all in for Yomi rework so that talent doesn't become useless, Zhin has 2 viable talents now, and despite the nerfs, he's still gonna be in a good spot because of how powerful and fast the burst in his Guillotine is, his survivability is, and his burst mobility is with proper cards in his deck.

I don't like a single thing you mentioned because he just received a hell of a good rework, and this would just break him.

I wouldn't way completely viable. He had no vertical mobility, which rendered him useless on certain maps. I think he just needs optional mobility in his kit, and he'll be good. No need for extra damage in his base kit, and I despise ult talents and flanks having tank busting talents. Flanks shouldn't bust tanks.

@shadowchess said in Zhin Rework [Season 3 Feedback]:

@IIMirage99II

None of this is good.
Zhin is over performing!
They nerf him and you want to buff him before the nerf even goes live?

More damage... Nope
Retaliation return... Nope
Changing his ult to be risk free... Nope

None of these ideas are remotly even on the table for Evil Mojo...

It takea quite a bit for them to revert a nerf.
Im suprised they gave Ash her damage back. Retaliation will never return because having a flank that can be the ultimate two second shield was just broken as shit for a skill with that much up time. It doing damgage on top of that was just crazy good.

Zhin should have 50% damage reduction in ult for base kit.

Change smolder legendary to smolder teleports zhin 25 units up and resets whirl.. But no longer puts him in smoke form.

Change Ultimate legendary to zhin can ult at 50% but it does two swings for 500 each.

I actually sort of like your ideas here.

• I don't think Zhin needs more damage in his base kit. His damage is currently enough in my opinion.

• I think retaliation should replace guillotine, but a nerfed version. It doesn't need the time increase, but the damage increase is fine. Have counter deal 50% more damage.

• His ult doesn't need to be risk free. Zhin has so much survivability in his base kit, his ult being risky isn't too bad.

I agree with your proposed changes. He shouldn't be immune from damage during his ult or completely safe, but 50% damage reduction is fair. I would actually replace Yomi with the talent that gives Zhin optional vertical mobility with whirl. Like Whirl does only 200 damage, but you get 2 consecutive uses of it, and you have the option to travel vertically/diagonally.

I'm personally not a fan of ult talents though. The only exception is Evie because she can only deal damage with her base ability, and with her ult.

@Dusklicious said in Seris needs help [S3 Suggestions]:

@TTraw said in Seris needs help [S3 Suggestions]:

@Dusklicious said in Seris needs help [S3 Suggestions]:

I think there's definitely better options personally, but maybe he's stronger than he seems. I mean Grohk is actually not that bad on live (and in fact can actually heal decently well in the hands of a good Grohk player), though honestly after playing some PTS he actually doesn't seem all that much better than before. Ult change was a straight-up nerf, Spirit's Domain is a joke in PTS, and some of the cards were actually nerfed. Though the heal card on Ghost Walk is f***ing insane.

Personally didn't try Grohk yet. This is so unfortunate to hear SD is garbage, it was my fav talent

My theorycrafting made me think that 30% speed with triple totem will be insane, but from what you're telling this doesn't seem to be the case?

As for Ghost Walk card, isn't that just weaker HP card on live?

500 heal per second is not worth sacrifing for the totems. Also Damage is worse on PTS.

It isn't quite because putting up three totems has essentially a 30 second cooldown (10 per charge). You have to actually manage your totems' CD to get the most healing out of it. Seems putting down two and saving the third is usually the best strategy most of the time.

No it isn't. It's a card that heals you while in Ghost Walk. Essentially it feels like a less broken Grohk equivalent of Barik's Double Time (except it's uncautable as long as you aren't already cauted).

Grohk is way worse. Spirit's Domain just needs to be deleted. No idea why they keep holding on to that talent. Just make shock pulse able to heal in base kit, and replace Spirit's Domain.

Though the worse thing they did with him was get rid of cc immunity with Totemic Ward. Now he's a generic heal bot. Oh well, time to play him strictly as a damage.

@M3RC3N4RI0 said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

Flanks who can shred tanks feel very frustrating for the tank player. I play only Nando and Raum and Torv as offtanks and they seem to work. But now I read this, there are indeed no games anymore with tanks dominating like Makoa 40:3 or Khan 30:4, while Maeve or Evie are still doing this.

Most people play flanks, and want easy kills. This wouldn't be so bad because most people secretly want an easier game, unless you're like Goku and constantly want a challenge. The problem is that they screw of the balance, and they being dps mains.

@Averey said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

@HeartQueen I definitely agree, they overnerfed some off tanks too much, like Ash (thank God it will be reverted again) or Khan on everything but the stun, flanks are meta currently and they have been consecutively buffed, to the point they do counter tanks, not even talking about squishier supports. And as M3RC3N4RI0 mentioned, it feels frustrating to play vs a flank who can down you on his abilities, or using tank deleting abilities/ults like Guillo or Street Justice.

I really despise flanks having tank busting talents. That's not balanced at all. I think all flanks should have: a talent that does more damage, vertical mobility (whether in the base kit or through a talent), a talent that heightens mobility, and a talent that gives them more sustain. Debilitate, Guillotine, Street Justice, etc., do not belong on flanks. Instead of nerfing off tanks, they need to buff flanks. I want flanks to have more self sustain, more mobility, vertical mobility on all flanks, etc. In return, off tanks need to be strong enough to counter them. At the same time, I want point tanks and supports buffed enough to counter off tanks.

Point tank versus off tank examples that happened even before the nerfs: Barik countered Atlas, Makoa, and Khan. Inara countered Ash, Makoa, and Raum. Terminus countered Ruckus, Fernando, and Raum. Supports naturally countered all off tanks if going damage/cc, but they spend so much time healing that they can't keep off tanks in check.

@Dusklicious said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

@M3RC3N4RI0 said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

Flanks who can shred tanks feel very frustrating for the tank player.
I play only Nando and Raum and Torv as offtanks and they seem to work.

At least Guillotine is getting the damage immunity removed. Still dumb, but not cancer. Also Koga's getting gutted which is also nice, sort of. Maeve still is way stronger than she should be.

They're pretty much the only good ones at this point aside from debatably Term and Khan (in some situations, but not most of the time), at least on live. In PTS it looks like off-tanks are even worse off with the exception of Ash... I mean they did sort of buff Koa shield builds, but that's a POINT build. The changes are actually a NERF to OT Koa.

Looking like next patch Ash and Nando are going to be the only good off-tanks. Raum will probably be okay, but not nearly as good as he was. Term off-tank is dead with the card nerfs, but it didn't need to be a thing to begin with.

Buff Atlas and OFF-TANK Koa EM (even though it may not be quite that simple with the latter), just please.

Makoa was a wonderful off tank. They just needed to replace leviathon with Davy Jones Locker, and remove cc immunity altogether. Seriously, a champion with high health, decent damage, great cc, and you give that guy cc immunity on top of that? What was Hi-Rez thinking? Off tanks don't need cc immunity in my opinion. That's something more for a point tank. Off tanks have decent mobility, high health point, and decent enough cc and damage to counter flankers. Giving any off tank cc immunity makes their kit bloated, and broken.

I personally hate ult talents on any character, so I hate Guillotine on Zhin, Nothing Personal on Talus, and Snow Globe on Evie. Though I'll make an exception for Evie because aside from her ult, she has no other way of attacking.

Atlas was unfairly nerfed. With the nerfs to resilience, they just needed to tone down his crowd control to match. Instead they nerf his damage, and he literally only has one way to damage. Besides, he's a sniper. He's might to have a hard hitting shot. They did Khan the same way.

@Stacona said in Willo Feels Bad Right Now and Ideas Given:

@HeartQueen I made changes.

I like the changes. I personally don't think the talents are all that balanced, which is fine. You'll always have a meta talent, but the question is: are they all viable?

Talent 1: the clear meta talent. It's basically like having a nerfed blastflower and scorn in one go. The damage of blastflower and the zoning of scorn.

Talent 2: this will be niche, but still viable depending on certain things though. Do you have air control in the base kit for this talent? If not, will the air control be a card? If you have air control, this talent could actually be viable, but not meta of course. Still, viable talents are good even if not meta. Before the changes, Barik's meta talent was tinkering, but archetectonics was still viable.

Talent 3: this is the exterminate of her talents. I like the idea of deadzone being bigger and deadlier, but this doesn't make it deadlier. It makes it weaker. I wouldn't want deadzone to be too overpowered, but this is a severely neutered version of it. I was thinking of Willo's deadzone being countered by rejuvenate (so it stops 85% healing with rejuvenate 3). I think this talent should stop 90%, but not be countered by rejuvenate. That'll make it a lot more devastating late game.

@Stacona said in Willo Feels Bad Right Now and Ideas Given:

Two big things:

1. Revert elimination card back to 10/10% from 8/8%
2. Some base kit changes with implementing aspects of Blastflower and Scorn into it and making brand new talents that are more interesting and allowing for 3 viable talents with unique gameplay.

I like this so far...

Examples of base kit:

1. Ammo increased to 12 from 8. Attack speed increased to 0.6 from 0.75 second. Damage changed to 300 from 500, damage now stacks by +75 whenever you hit an enemy against that target for the next 4 seconds (old Blastflower was 5 seconds, current is 3 seconds), up to a total of 750 damage as the cap. [Stack cap increased to 6 from 3.]

I think the fuck not. Starting off at 300 damage is bad no matter how you slice it. Her damage should start off at 400 at the absolute lowest, and it should stack up to 5 for 4 seconds.

2. Seedlings fuse time decreased to 0.5 from 1 second. Damage lowered to 350 from 400.

3. Deadzone impact damage increased to 250 from 100.

I like these 2.

4. Flutter passive gained: Now holding the jump button holds Willo in place at her current altitude, but cannot move, for up to 2 seconds. New card added that increases this maximum duration further. New card added allowing for the ability to move and more movement with more points into this card.
   [This will help Willo get off damage and help her out on more maps, but at the risk of being a sitting target while doing it and not make her super mobile to give her viability on weaker maps.]

No.

Examples of new talents:

1. [Talent 1]: Deadzone now heals on impact for 800 health and an additional 100 health per second to those within the zone, appropriate Deadzone cards now applies to allies as well, but no longer deals damage to enemies.

Absolutely fucking not. Please stop with the non supports being actual supports. Please. How about we create new viable supports and buff the existing ones instead of giving non supports pseudo support kits? Thanks.

2. [Talent 2]: Seedling now drops seedlings as it travels through the air every 0.15 second, up to 10 additional seedlings, but they no longer explode into multiple seedlings. Seedling damage is increased to 500.

I don't see the point of this talent, I'm going to be honest. I think an increase in the damage of seedlings is fine in my opinion.

3. [Talent 3]: Your weapon attacks now burst in shots of 3 over 0.3 second and your ammo count is increased to 18, but damage per shot is decreased by 65% / decreased to 35% damage. [105% total damage per burst, ammo consumes 3 times faster, you have 6 shots essentially, will stack the damage increase 3 times faster though]

Good idea, but her base kit needs to be reworked, and this in turn too or it'll be broken.

The Wrap Up:

So let me know what you think and your thoughts on all of this. If you have any other ideas, present them below!
Peace and love!

I like the new ideas, but some are very much no. No more non supports trying to be supports. The support class literally has no respect. People disregard the support class so much that they'll make anyone a support. It's actually sad. Pausing in place during flutter is a no. And 300 damage in base kit, even with the stacks, is a hard one.

Though overall, I love your ideas about the seedlings and deadzone. I like the idea of faster shots and more stacks, but less damage initially. If I could add one, it would be deadzone is affected by rejuvenate. That way with rejuvenate 3, the tanks can at least get 15% healing if they step in it. It's still a good zoning tool, but tanks won't be completely out of options either.

@shadowchess said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

@HeartQueen Im not even sure how your relpy makes any since in the coversation this thread is discussing.

If your stating that Khan was balanced before, thats just silly.

If your saying flanks got an indirect buff from tank nerfs, you are correct. That was part of the intention.

Khan and Koa where really good flankers with 4k health.

This is about off tanks doing bad against flankers. Hi-Rez nerfed off tanks so flanks could be meta. I'm criticizing this decision because it was a bad decision. Instead of nerfing off tanks, they should have just buffed flanks. Instead they killed off tanks. Off tanks are made to counter flanks, they keep flanks in check. If no one can keep flanks in check, that make for a horrible meta. Every class in my opinion should be buffed to keep everyone else in check. You don't want a dominant class.

Khan's only broken talent was Storm of Bullets before because he could out dps a Drogoz if he were good enough. That's not acceptable. That just means Storm of Bullets needed a nerf though, not his base kit. This is another problem with Hi-Rez. If Ying does too much healing with Life Exchange, then Life Exchange needs a nerf, not her base kit. Her base heals are bad and actually need a buff, but Hi-Rez would nerf both. See how bad that sort of stuff is?

Khan and Makoa could never replace a good Evie or Maeve. Other flankers need to be brought up to their level. They should all have optional vertical mobility, and just a ton of mobility and self sustain actually. That's more balanced than, "just make Makoa and Khan crap." It's like a teacher noticing a student with a 92% and and another student with a 76%. Instead of bring that 76% student to up to an 84%, she would rather bring the 96% student down to an 84%. That's literally Hi-Rez.

@shadowchess said in Off tanks are in a bad spot, Off tank VS damage/flankers is just silly currently:

@maczerofun Off tank does not mean kill everything tank. A large amount of people that think they are good at off tank are actually just damage dealers that where good at tracking and killing things with tanks that did to much damage.

Tanks are far from boring, they take allot of game knowledge to do well with.

Most Khans are currently running around diving into shit that they should not be diving into and getting punished. The real issue is that khan was allowed to get away with this reckless play style for so long that people think its how he should be played. Khan could kill anything in seconds before so he could just run into 3 people kill someone and then shield up and back away. That shit no longer works any more because he can no longer burst people down so fast. Andro is made to kill khan, its not shocking that he wins 1v1

The big difference is that off tanks need opening to make plays.....
Before Makoa or Khan didnt need an opening, they just ran up into your face and killed you.
Now they need to wait for someone to make a mistake before trying to rush you.

Counter Play

Grohks changes are going help him greatly.....
Even if we simplify it ... TOTUMS stack

So grohk could place all three totums back to back and be healing an area for 900HP a second and all three would be back up in 10 seconds.... Thats 5 seconds off and almost double the amount of healing. The fact that you can split your healing between multiple targets is huge. Gale will allow you to get that cool down to 7 seconds.... Chronos 3 will take it down by another 3 seconds... So he can have all three totums up at once with a 4 second down time... Ghost walk is increased so gale so it will not be spamable but it will be pretty strong.

Khan had many counters before... Oh wait, the flank mains nerfed the biggest counters of off tanks, which were supports! Then flank mains got mad that with supports nerfed, the best counters for off tanks, that off tanks rose up in the meta. Dude, it's common fucking sense. If you nerf the counter of something, the thing that the counter countered, gets an indirect buff. If you nerf scissors, paper gets an indirect buff. Scissors can't do much against paper, therefore paper is able to dominate rock.

Also, flank mains have this wacky sense of balance. Instead of nerfing everyone else, why not suggest buffs for flanks? Flanks just needed more self sustain and mobility, while supports needed more cc. The supports would keep off tanks in checks, while flanks with more self sustain and mobility could get away rush in and rush out. That's how you balance. Not, "Wah!!! I keep getting killed by off tanks as a flank, even though off tanks are supposed to counter flanks! I want them nerfed!" Then you get the damage and flank meta, because why not?

@Demigod said in New off healer Khan:

@HeartQueen said in New off healer Khan:

Khan and other off tanks died so flanks could be meta.

Apart from the fact they buffed Flanks and nerfed Offtanks dreadfully in one patch... I think they also gave a couple of dead offtanks some love, like Ruckus and Nando, and made Offtank Terminus slightly more viable...

It's really heartbreaking to see someone like Khan magically dying in one patch when he has a lot of things in his kit that makes him exciting.

Nevertheless, Off Healer Khan might fix this, so as usual, I agree with KicsitCsicska.

Khan needs to go back to his original state, with a nerfed storm of bullets. His base kit was fine on its own, it was storm of bullets and also Vortex grip now due to nerfed resilience, that made him cancer. The last thing was need is an off tank that's a pseudo support. That would be as cancerous as support Skye.

This is part of the problem with balancing. People suggest things and don't understand the repercussions. A Khan giving 1900 healing in 7.7 seconds is not balanced, Khan giving cc immunity to his team is not balanced. A balanced Khan would be reverting his base kit, nerfing storm of bullets to 30% or 25% increased attack speed. Then replacing Lian's shield with something that gives him 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds after battle shout or something that detaches his shield, and makes his shield 3 times larger with 2000 more health. Something that increases his sustain, or gives him an optional point tank talent (I opt for more sustain because he'll never be a viable point tank like Inara, Terminus, and Barik). Do anything, but please don't make him a support. Can we have actual support as a support? Like are supports in such a bad spot that people want to turn off tanks and flanks into supports?

@Demigod said in New off healer Khan:

On the subject of Khan... I think he really didn't deserve the ammo nerfs and the nerfs to his Battle Shout. But it got nerfed anyway, and now he's rather weak...

Kicsit's ideas can be helpful and make Khan better overall I guess.

Khan and other off tanks died so flanks could be meta. Instead of buffing a weak class, Evil Mojo likes to nerf the strong class.